fragnable ammo
What(if any) advantage does one have with these type ammo than using hollow points, in a self defence situation?
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None in most situations. 0 -
It greatly reduces the chance of killing an innocent bystander with a stray bullet or ricochet, a real possibility in urban areas.
JHP's, FMJ's, & solid lead will all go through bodies, walls & floors, & will bounce off of solid surfaces. An otherwise "good" shooting, could end up with the shooter facing a manslaughter charge.
Neal0 -
Frangible bullets (some are "segmented" -- perhaps that's what you mean with your term "fragnable") are designed to break apart on impact. Some are designed to break apart (or disintegrate) if hitting hard targets, but are supposed to stay relatively intact if penetrating the soft tissue of an animal.
The arguments "for" ammunition loaded with this type of bullet being used in a self-defense situation, is that there can be reduced risk to innocent bystanders since any bullets that miss their target are less likely to penetrate walls/floors where they might hit innocent people. Some are also effective at creating devastating wound channels, thus resulting in faster incapacitation of an assailant -- which is important in a self-defense situation.
The arguments "against" frangible rounds is that they won't have the penetration -- they disintegrate in "shallow" skin and outer muscle tissue, or when hitting bone -- and don't have the incapacitation capability to stop a threat quick enough. (When considering "incapacitation" in a self-defense situations, most experts won't look at pain from wounds, since assailants may be "high" on drugs or natural endorphins and won't feel pain from even horrific "flesh" wounds.) Frangible rounds also will not be effective if there is a barrier an assailant is behind. For example, police officers often have to fire, when defending themselves, on assailants in, or behind, cars. A round that will disintegrate when hitting the sheet metal of a car door isn't what one would want in this situation.
Personally, I think one has to look at a lot of variables when making decisions about frangible ammunition. Things like the overall firearm and round characteristics and the location one might be in when using a specific firearm. For example, if I had a high-powered rifle I might need to use in a city/suburban environment, I'd probably want some type of frangible round to reduce the risk of over penetration. If I were using a low-powered handgun round (something like 32acp or 25acp) I'd be extremely reluctant to use frangible rounds as I'd be concerned there would be insufficient penetration to be effective in stopping an assailant advancing on me. With such low-powered rounds, I even avoid hollow points, again, due to lack of penetration concerns.
One has to evaluate the individual rounds, firearm and potential circumstances when making these decisions.0 -
your forgeting the number one reason to use frangibles, THEY DONT LEAVE RIFLEING. so cannot be traced back to your gun, or so im told! 0 -
Frangible ammo.
I know two types. Glaser and MagSafe are anti-personnel meant to do a lot of damage without much penetration. M. Ayoob said to reserve them for a backup gun with which you might have to hit hard but from close range.
Sinterfire and others are meant for training and practice at close range on hard targets to minimize ricochet.
I would not shoot at an assailant with that type unless it was all I had.0 -
quote:Originally posted by burpfire
your forgeting the number one reason to use frangibles, THEY DONT LEAVE RIFLEING. so cannot be traced back to your gun, or so im told!
You're told wrong, because the spent cases are potentially traceable back to the firing gun in question.
IMO, unless you're a criminal, there is precious little reason to try and conceal your ballistics.
And if you are, there are plenty of ways to do this, without having to use frangible ammo. The most time-honored way is just to get rid of the gun after using it in a crime.
EDIT
quote:At George Zimmerman's trial, the ballistics expert was asked if it is possible to match a fired case to a specific gun; she answered "yes". A more correct answer would have been "sometimes"; fired case matching is an inexact science.
If you can do it "sometimes" doesn't that mean its "possible"? [;)]
Like most of the nonsense surrounding this trial, with Zimmerman, the idea of ballistics matching was a total red-herring. Zimmerman admitted shooting Martin and handed his still loaded gun to police at the crime scene. There was no question in this case of who shot Martin, with what gun, or with what ammo. While it might have been nice to tie Zimmerman's specific gun to bullets or cases recovered from the victim/scene with ballistic forensic evidence, since neither the defense NOR the prosecution were trying to argue that someone ELSE's gun shot Martin, it wouldn't have made any difference either way. In short, the ballistics were never an issue here.
Lets say Zimmerman had used frangible (or some other unusual ammo) is his gun. In that case, the politically minded prosecution would probably have tried to use that against him. Realistically, with Zimmerman, there was so much eyewitness and physical evidence corroborating Zimmerman's account of what happened, that it probably wouldn't have changed the outcome, but in a more borderline case something like that could sway the jury as to intent on the part of the shooter. In short, a prosecutor may try to show that someone who loads their gun with "crazy" ammo may have hostile intent, or themself be "crazy".
Back on topic you should choose your ammo type based on what you need to do with it, budget, and availability. If you don't have criminal intent, there is little need to try and conceal your ballistics, and you're probably better picking the more effective and less expensive conventional rounds. If you are trying to conceal ballistics, I think there are better ways to do that anyway.
What kind of ammo should you use for personal defense? Answer. . .use commercially loaded ammo labelled "personal defense". That's probably going to be the most effective.
When do you want to use frangible ammo? That ammo is specifically designed to reduce risk of overpenetration (eg going through walls) or ricocheting off hard surfaces. So if you are an air marshall who may need to discharge their gun within the passenger hold of an aircraft. . .you might want frangible ammo. Ditto for someone in a crowded apartment building, or even in a crowded urban area. For most people? No advantage.0 -
It depends.
Most frangible ammo has a copper jacket that picks up markings from the bore. If large enough pieces remain intact, they can sometimes be matched to a specific gun.
At George Zimmerman's trial, the ballistics expert was asked if it is possible to match a fired case to a specific gun; she answered "yes". A more correct answer would have been "sometimes"; fired case matching is an inexact science.
Neal0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah Originally posted by burpfire
your forgeting the number one reason to use frangibles, THEY DONT LEAVE RIFLEING. so cannot be traced back to your gun, or so im told!
You're told wrong, because the spent cases are potentially traceable back to the firing gun in question.
IMO, unless you're a criminal, there is precious little reason to try and conceal your ballistics.
And if you are, there are plenty of ways to do this, without having to use frangible ammo. The most time-honored way is just to get rid of the gun after using it in a crime.
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cases are very hard to match to guns. can it be done? yes, but it is not 100% on every gun. rifling yes, you are screwed, that's why I said frangibles. lets face it, you can easily pick up your brass or use a brass catcher. and you are surely not going to get rid of an exspensive ar-15. im just saying frangibles are an easy way to not get caught. kinda hard to pin a murder on someone if they cant match the gun to you.0 -
Your can remove the firing pin, extractor, slide and barrel! If you have the right gun you can swap these parts out and the tests will show something quite different than the original fired round.
Emmett0 -
Since the topic digressed from frangible ammo for defense to ways of possibly covering up a homicide, I'll get back on topic.
Frangible ammo DESIGNED for anti-personnel use, like Glaser or the DRT stuff, is a legitimate choice for defense. The bullets are intended to perform in a certain manner, and will do so.
Frangible ammo DESIGNED for indoor ranges requiring no-lead bullets or live-fire house use is not made to be used in a defensive role. It is made to have just enough oomph to function in semi-auto handguns and rifles like the M-4, and to have projectiles that do not damage steel target backers/plates (or punch through body armor in case of an errant shot) as much as regular rounds do.
I personally would not use it in a defensive role. When the chips are down and it's my butt on the line, a hollow point or other properly designed bullet should do the tricks I require. But like anything else; if it is all you have then it'll possibly work in that role....or possibly not. That is a chance I won't take.0
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