.38 special +P in Smith model 19?
This is from the .357 magnum thread on why K frame Smith guns don't like .357s:
quote:
http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=599115
Emmett Dunham Senior Member
Posted - 05/06/2013 : 8:22:42 PM
I shot +P specials in my Model 19 and it locked the cylinder up. I got the manual out and it is listed not to shoot them!
I'm having a hard time with this one.
Does the Smith and Wesson model 19 manual REALLY say not to fire .38+P ammo in these revolvers? What's the exact wording?
Not only have I shot .38+Ps many times though my model 19 with zero issues, I don't even see how this is possible. Why would a .38+P be more likely to "walk loose" in a .357 than in any regular medium frame .38 special gun like a model 10? Something is seriously wrong if a gun rated to fire .357 magnums at 35,000 PSI isn't supposed to take .38+P specials at 18000 PSI.
If I remember right Smith does or did have a specific prohibition against using heavy bullets in its alloy frame .357 J frames, because the recoil with those guns is so violent, the bullets can "jump crimp" and lock up the cylinder, but that's sort of a different issue.
Anyone else ever seen this problem or can clarify here?
Edit, responding to below:
quote:Originally posted by Emmett Dunham
There are 21 .38 Special or .357 revolvers in the manual and the Model 19 is one of the models with a diamond in the +P column that references this warning:
"Plus-P" (+P) ammunition generates pressures significantly in excess of the pressures associated with standard .38 Special ammunition. Such pressures may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety built into many revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS.
It goes on to make a statement about the Pre 1958 Models medium (K frame) revolvers and the same warning, not to use +P in them.
Just to clarify, the Smith and Wesson model 19 was introduced for commercial sale as the "combat magnum" in 1957. By 1958, it was already on the first "dash" variation, the 19-1. So the only models 19 that even could fall into the pre-58 category are the (now highly collectible) ones that came out the first year or two of manufacture.
As to the warning you cite, its says "many revolvers". . .I simply cannot believe that Smith intended that warning to its model 19, or any other 357 magnum revolver as one of the "many".
Again, despite the popular misconception, .38+P is only marginally more powerful than "ordinary" +P ammo. Personally, I can't even tell the difference between ordinary .38s and .38+Ps when firing them blinded through a K-frame revolver (but I sure as heck know when a .357 is coming out the spout!). Meanwhile ANY .357 magnum gun should be able to handle .357 magnum rounds are more than twice the operating pressure of any .38 or .38+P. Like the others, I've fired plenty of .38+Ps through J and K frame revolvers (including more than one model 19) with no issues whatever. . .the only thing these seem to hurt is my wallet! [:p]
Not at all discounting your experience, I simply don't believe that it was the ballistic characteristics of the ammo that locked up your gun. How is that even physically possible? (IE what exactly got "stuck" here?). I suspect it something else, perhaps some particles getting stuck on the forcing cone (forcing open the cylinder could dislodge them), or perhaps an opening-up ejector rod.
The unwinding ejector rod issue is common to older K-frame revolvers, and particularly insidious, because all of a sudden an otherwise perfectly functional gun cylinder will bind, regardless of gun cleanliness or maintenance. Speaking from experience, its a particularly vexing problem if you don't know what's going on!
Echoing the earlier question, how exactly did your gun lock up, and how did you fix the problem?
quote:
http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=599115
Emmett Dunham Senior Member
Posted - 05/06/2013 : 8:22:42 PM
I shot +P specials in my Model 19 and it locked the cylinder up. I got the manual out and it is listed not to shoot them!
I'm having a hard time with this one.
Does the Smith and Wesson model 19 manual REALLY say not to fire .38+P ammo in these revolvers? What's the exact wording?
Not only have I shot .38+Ps many times though my model 19 with zero issues, I don't even see how this is possible. Why would a .38+P be more likely to "walk loose" in a .357 than in any regular medium frame .38 special gun like a model 10? Something is seriously wrong if a gun rated to fire .357 magnums at 35,000 PSI isn't supposed to take .38+P specials at 18000 PSI.
If I remember right Smith does or did have a specific prohibition against using heavy bullets in its alloy frame .357 J frames, because the recoil with those guns is so violent, the bullets can "jump crimp" and lock up the cylinder, but that's sort of a different issue.
Anyone else ever seen this problem or can clarify here?
Edit, responding to below:
quote:Originally posted by Emmett Dunham
There are 21 .38 Special or .357 revolvers in the manual and the Model 19 is one of the models with a diamond in the +P column that references this warning:
"Plus-P" (+P) ammunition generates pressures significantly in excess of the pressures associated with standard .38 Special ammunition. Such pressures may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety built into many revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS.
It goes on to make a statement about the Pre 1958 Models medium (K frame) revolvers and the same warning, not to use +P in them.
Just to clarify, the Smith and Wesson model 19 was introduced for commercial sale as the "combat magnum" in 1957. By 1958, it was already on the first "dash" variation, the 19-1. So the only models 19 that even could fall into the pre-58 category are the (now highly collectible) ones that came out the first year or two of manufacture.
As to the warning you cite, its says "many revolvers". . .I simply cannot believe that Smith intended that warning to its model 19, or any other 357 magnum revolver as one of the "many".
Again, despite the popular misconception, .38+P is only marginally more powerful than "ordinary" +P ammo. Personally, I can't even tell the difference between ordinary .38s and .38+Ps when firing them blinded through a K-frame revolver (but I sure as heck know when a .357 is coming out the spout!). Meanwhile ANY .357 magnum gun should be able to handle .357 magnum rounds are more than twice the operating pressure of any .38 or .38+P. Like the others, I've fired plenty of .38+Ps through J and K frame revolvers (including more than one model 19) with no issues whatever. . .the only thing these seem to hurt is my wallet! [:p]
Not at all discounting your experience, I simply don't believe that it was the ballistic characteristics of the ammo that locked up your gun. How is that even physically possible? (IE what exactly got "stuck" here?). I suspect it something else, perhaps some particles getting stuck on the forcing cone (forcing open the cylinder could dislodge them), or perhaps an opening-up ejector rod.
The unwinding ejector rod issue is common to older K-frame revolvers, and particularly insidious, because all of a sudden an otherwise perfectly functional gun cylinder will bind, regardless of gun cleanliness or maintenance. Speaking from experience, its a particularly vexing problem if you don't know what's going on!
Echoing the earlier question, how exactly did your gun lock up, and how did you fix the problem?
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From the S&W Owner's Guide for Revolvers, ammo section:
Additional ammunition calibers can be fired from the
following list of select calibers.
Caliber on Barrel Can also Fire
.500 S&W MAG .500 Special
.460 S&W MAG .45 Colt, .454 Casull
.45 Colt .45 Schofield, .45 S&W,
.45 S&W .45 Schofield
.45 ACP .45 Auto Rim (in revolvers only)
.44 Magnum .44 Special
.357 Magnum .38 Special, .38 Special +P
.22LR .22L, .22 Short (in revolvers only)0 -
It might have gotten clogged up with lead residue from lack of cleaning, or it was on its way to seizing up no matter what was shot...without a gunsmith's analysis, we'll never really know what the deal was with this particular gun.
You'll be able to shoot lots and LOTS of .38 +p in a K-frame like the M-19/M-66.
as a response to Emmitt: Even the most meticulous firearm owner might miss something to cause a binding cylinder. I am one of those myself, and inspect and clean every firearm I own after every use (In fact I just cleaned 5 difrferent ones Monday after a range trip). For myself, the only two revolver cylinder lock ups I have ever personally encountered involved a cheap Rossi 5-shot with a cylinder that had just enough cylinder endshake that allowed the cylinder to rub against the barrel throat when firing. Cheap gun, long since sold off. The second was my "new to me" K-frame 3" model 13 had the ejector rod back out and bind up the cylinder during a range session so it would not open. Both of these were items that I should have caught beforehand, but didn't. I have not had any of these issues with the 4" or 2.5" M-19's I also have, and have shot extensively with .38 and +P 38 rounds.
I have had excessive leading from firing a bunch .38 rounds cause the .357 rounds I later loaded intio the gun to not fully seat causing them to rub against the rear face of the cylinder opening when the gun was being fired, but that was not as a result of damage or loosening, just built up gunk from shooting the shorter rounds inside the long chambers.
As for the warnings, early on a lot of ammo makers did not have SAAMI specs to load +P or +P+ rounds, so the manufacturers were quick to not recommend their use as a legal protection for themselves because these loads were not standardized. (And many .38 Spl. guns weren't proofed for the heavier +P loads, either. I will not shoot +P's in my early 49 Bodyguard nor my early .38 M&P for this reason, but I will in my .38 Ruger SP 101.)
Seeing as modern +P and +P+ rounds in .38 Spl are supposed to be loaded to SAAMI specs lower than the pressures developed by .357 mag rounds as was listed in the earlier post, the effects on the gun you describe should not have been a result of using the +P .38 Special rounds in a .357 magnum-proofed firearm...unless the loads you were using were so far out of SAMMI spec that they were dangerous in any small or medium frame firearm.0 -
I suspect that Dunham's locked up cylinder may have been due to the extractor rod backing out during firing and not an ammo issue.
I have 8 "K" frame Smith magnums and have shot loads of magnum ammo as well as +P ammo from them and never experienced a locked up cylinder.0 -
The Revolver is in very good condition and very clean. I have shot a lot of ammo through the gun and have not had a problem with loaded down .38 specials or and magnum loads. I have the manual and will dig it out and show you what was printed in the ammo section in a 1980's manual. If you do a search this has come up before and there was a conversation confirming what I have stated.
Emmett
There are 21 .38 Special or .357 revolvers in the manual and the Model 19 is one of the models with a diamond in the +P column that references this warning:
"Plus-P" (+P) ammunition generates pressures significantly in excess of the pressures associated with standard .38 Special ammunition. Such pressures may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety built into many revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS.
It goes on to make a statement about the Pre 1958 Models medium (K frame) revolvers and the same warning, not to use +P in them.
Actually I had the revolver freeze up twice with the +P ammo in the one shooting session and would never put this ammo in the Modal 19 I have again after reading this warning.
What you think about a good operating Model 19 and the reality of the factory warning and the experience I had are two different things. The revolver I have is almost 100% condition and has been very well taken care of. After the experience of the two lock ups the pistol has not had any other problems.
The Ammo I used eight years ago were factory loaded +P rounds; the box they were inn was silver and red, they may have been Federal. I loaded them into the pistol and fired. I notice that the recoil stung my hand after I fired a few; I can't be sure how many I fired before the first lock up and should have stopped using the weapon on the first. Let me know if you want further information and I will post it.0 -
+p .38 Spl is more power than standard .38 Spl but not by much. .357 Mag is obviously more powerful than either. I just don't buy that a properly operating Model 19 couldn't handle +p loads consistently.
.38 Special runs about 17,000psi +/-
.38 Special +p runs about 20,000 psi +/-
.357 Mag runs 35,000 psi0 -
quote:Originally posted by Emmett Dunham
Actually I had the revolver freeze up twice with the +P ammo...We could continue to make educated guesses here, but could you supply details about what precise condition caused the cylinder to become locked up?0 -
Got it! After I fired the round that locked the cylinder up I could not get the latch to release the cylinder. I used my thumb and fingers to rock the cylinder and pushing the latch back and forth and it would not rotate or move at all. After playing with it for a few minutes it finally fell open and I continued to shoot the rounds again and the same thing happened. I used the same proceedure to finally to get the cylinder to unlock and that ended the +P experience. I did notice as I stated before that the sting of the rounds to my hand was quite aparant after I quite firing and the only thing that has come close to this feeling are some hot loaded .44 magnum rounds I fired but did not sting like the .38 specials.
Emmett
Emmett0 -
quote:Originally posted by Emmett Dunham
Got it! After I fired the round that locked the cylinder up I could not get the latch to release the cylinder. I used my thumb and fingers to rock the cylinder and pushing the latch back and forth and it would not rotate or move at all. After playing with it for a few minutes it finally fell open and I continued to shoot the rounds again and the same thing happened. I used the same proceedure to finally to get the cylinder to unlock and that ended the +P experience.
Well, a couple of different things could do that.
The early vintage K frame Smiths (prior to the early 1960s) used reverse-threaded ejector rods that tend to unscrew with normal cylinder rotation. Eventually they open up, locking the cylinder from rotating and preventing the gun from being opened.
One way to fix this is to apply a tiny dab of blue loctite on the ejector rod threads, then tighten them finger tight, so they won't open up again until you want them to.
Years ago, Smith addressed this issue and fixed the design problem, though interestingly, I've heard that Taurus (whose revolver designs are mostly Smith copies) never has!
Anyway, if you're gun is a 19-2 or below, this could be your problem. You might crack open your gun and see if with just finger force you can rotate/unscrew the ejector rod against the cylinder. If you can. . .that's your problem.
Another possible issue is loose or cratered primers. . .primers bending outwards or walking loose out of their pockets under firing pressure can press against the frame behind the cylinder and lock up a gun. This shouldn't happen with normal .38 or .38+P ammo, but it could with a bad batch of ammo.
Improperly crimped bullets walking loose under recoil is another mechanical issue that can lock up a cylinder. Again, that would fall under the category of "bad ammo", and wouldn't be specific to .38+P.
quote:
I did notice as I stated before that the sting of the rounds to my hand was quite aparant after I quite firing and the only thing that has come close to this feeling are some hot loaded .44 magnum rounds I fired but did not sting like the .38 specials.
Well, recoil is subjective.
I can tell you that OBJECTIVELY, .38+P ammo is only a little more powerful than "ordinary" .38 special, and not only should it not generate much more recoil, it shouldn't generate anywhere NEAR .357 magnum (let alone .44 magnum!) like recoil.
Again, I've tried it, and shooting them blinded I can't even tell the difference in recoil between .38s and .38+P ammo from my 4" Smith 19. But with .357 magnum, there is a noticeable and dramatic increase in felt recoil, flash, and noise, to the point where shooters in adjacent LANES notice the difference! I've actually had novice shooters come up to me and ask me what I'm shooting. . . .apparently .357 magnum is somewhat unusual!
Now, there was a time when police agencies shied away from issuing .357 magnum ammo because it was considered politically incorrect to shoot suspect with "Dirty Harry magnum" ammo. Instead, many of them would issue "police issue only .38+P+ ammo" that was loaded to hotter levels than .38+P, mostly to .357 magnum power, just not labelled as such. Eventually this sort of ammo was discontinued and a lot of surplus ended up on the civilian market.
So if you were firing some of this +P+ ammo, you might notice increased recoil. Still even this non-SAAMI approved ammo should still be safe to fire in any .357 magnum revolver, if manufactured correctly.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Emmett Dunham
I used my thumb and fingers to rock the cylinder and pushing the lareally bad batch of ammo.tch back and forth and it would not rotate or move at all. After playing with it for a few minutes it finally fell open...This locking tight rotationally condition you describe sounds like primer material flowing back into the firing pin hole from seriously excessive pressure. Especially so considering that you also say these round's recoil was noticeably more fierce - which doesn't sound right for a .38 +P compared to a standard load.
Another possible contributing factor in this scenario would be a slightly peened firing pin hole.
If those were the only +P .38's you ever fired through the gun you very possibly just got your hands on a bad batch of ammo.
I have quite a bit of M19 mileage under my belt and have fired literally tons of .38's through them over the years - both standard and +P level - with no problems such as you describe.0
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