Rifled Choke Tubes for Shotguns question
I received a catalog from Carlson's Choke Tubes in the mail today and when flipping through the catalog I noticed they make "Rifled Choke Tubes" for several 12 and 20 gauge shotguns including the Remington 870 20 gauge that I have.
The catalog states that these will work with slugs, rifled slugs, and sabots and until now I had no idea such a thing existed.
I was considering purchasing a seperate rifled barrel for my 870 20 gauge in order to shoot sabotted projectiles but since these rifled tubes are a fraction of the cost of a complete barrel I am now researching the possibilities of one of these rifled tubes instead.
My main question is how much does one of these rifled tubes actually improve target groups over just a cylinder or improved cylinder choke on my standard 870 barrel? And how would target groups compare between the rifled cylinder and a rifled barrel, and is it significant enough to make purchasind a much more expensive barrel worth the additional expense?
I also have difficulty in wrapping my head around the science of these rifled choke tubes.
With one of these rifled choke tubes installed.....you have upon ignition a heavy slug rocketing down a smooth bore that SUDDENLY impacts a section of rifling and in my mind violently restricted as it impacts the rifling and imparting a 1 in 35" right hand twist just before exploding from the muzzle end of the tube. To me this is a much different scenario than what takes place in a fully rifled barrel where the sabot and slug start out from a continue down the length of a fully rifled barrel.
In my mind.....blasting a sabotted slug full throttle down a smooth bore with zero right hand rotation and having it suddenly impact the restriction of rifling grooves and at the same time suddenly begin a right hand spin......I would think the violence of this sudden restricted movement and change of direction would distort the slug or sabot to a point where any kind of improved accuracy would be nearly out of the question. I'm also surprised that the violence of this action does not explode the tube or end of the barrel.
Obviously Carlson's must have the science down to where this does not happen, but I'm still wondering about the overall benefit of this product.
Has anyone out there had enough experience with this product that they can expound on my concerns a bit? Or, has anyone seen any U-Tube video bench rest comparrisons?
Thanks.
The catalog states that these will work with slugs, rifled slugs, and sabots and until now I had no idea such a thing existed.
I was considering purchasing a seperate rifled barrel for my 870 20 gauge in order to shoot sabotted projectiles but since these rifled tubes are a fraction of the cost of a complete barrel I am now researching the possibilities of one of these rifled tubes instead.
My main question is how much does one of these rifled tubes actually improve target groups over just a cylinder or improved cylinder choke on my standard 870 barrel? And how would target groups compare between the rifled cylinder and a rifled barrel, and is it significant enough to make purchasind a much more expensive barrel worth the additional expense?
I also have difficulty in wrapping my head around the science of these rifled choke tubes.
With one of these rifled choke tubes installed.....you have upon ignition a heavy slug rocketing down a smooth bore that SUDDENLY impacts a section of rifling and in my mind violently restricted as it impacts the rifling and imparting a 1 in 35" right hand twist just before exploding from the muzzle end of the tube. To me this is a much different scenario than what takes place in a fully rifled barrel where the sabot and slug start out from a continue down the length of a fully rifled barrel.
In my mind.....blasting a sabotted slug full throttle down a smooth bore with zero right hand rotation and having it suddenly impact the restriction of rifling grooves and at the same time suddenly begin a right hand spin......I would think the violence of this sudden restricted movement and change of direction would distort the slug or sabot to a point where any kind of improved accuracy would be nearly out of the question. I'm also surprised that the violence of this action does not explode the tube or end of the barrel.
Obviously Carlson's must have the science down to where this does not happen, but I'm still wondering about the overall benefit of this product.
Has anyone out there had enough experience with this product that they can expound on my concerns a bit? Or, has anyone seen any U-Tube video bench rest comparrisons?
Thanks.
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I believe your doubts are well founded, vis a vis these rifled choke tubes.
Actually the concept isn't new. Years ago the Williams Co. from MI sold a rifled attachment that was clamped on the end of a shotgun barrel. The way it was dropped quickly from their products catalog, makes it seem that it's usefulness left a lot to be desired.0 -
Remington makes rifled choke tubes for their shotguns, and have done so for many years. Carlson's version is nothing new. And they all work pretty decently. I have seen slug groups cut in half after installing a rifled choke tube. So have many other people.
Lots of info on the web:
http://www.huntchat.com/archive/index.php/t-44401.html
Way back yonder when the sabots first came out I bought a bunch of the Smith & Wesson(made by BRI) sabots for police work. Very hard things and had to be shot out of an open choke. Used 'em in a Rem 1100 skeet gun with a weaver mounted scope. They were the best things since canned(or bottled) beer. Still have some in fact...collectible for certain. They would shoot 4 inch groups at a 100 yds...if I did my part. Got an 11-87 later with a rifled choke tube and shot some of those S&W sabots through that with the same scope set up. Cut my best groups to 2 1/2 inches. I was truly amazed. The thing that was so much better with the sabots and the rifled choke was the range increase with good accuracy. They were good for 150-175 yds under good conditions. My previous shooting at a stretch was 125..and that was only once or twice under perfect conditions. on a side note while shooting more than 400 deer(shot on crop damage permits etc) I lost only 1 deer(and it only traveled 35 yds) that hid itself in a pile of leaves in a patch of green briers. I only took shots that I knew I could make. That rifled choke was a big help. I had a fully rifled 11-87 that has taken(by 4 hunters) 91 deer...with 99 shots...and 7 shots were used to sight it in. Hopefully the fellow that has that gun now will extend the record.:cool:0 -
don't ask me for sources because it has been at least 20 years, but field test by several different magazines and the like pretty much followed m1aguy's results. Big improvement with rifled choke over plain barrel, with sabots the results were that much better. Full rifled barrels give an improvement but there was not as big a jump from rifled choke to rifled barrel as there was plain barrel to rifled choke.
Edit for harkbroke: My apologies for my response, I reread it and realized it could be interperted differently than I intended.
A rifled choke will give a huge improvement over a plain barrel.
A rifled barrel will give a bigger improvement over a plain barrel than a rifled choke will.
A rifled barrel is a slight to moderate improvement over a rifled choke.
As an example using artbitrary #'s say a plain barrel patterns 12", rifled choke may pattern 4" and a rifled barrel 3". The relatively cheap choke will provide a big improvement but the sometimes much bigger cost for the rifled barrel will only offer slight improvement of the choke but will normally be better.
The big thing is you never know what works till you try it. A friend had a 20ga 870 full choke gun that he could shoot 4" groups with at 100yds using plain old rifled slugs and he never saw a reason to spend money to improve upon that.0 -
So guys...am I understanding you to say that the rifled choke is overall more accurate than a fully rifled barrel?
And increases the range distance significantly?0 -
quote:Originally posted by harkbroke
So guys...am I understanding you to say that the rifled choke is overall more accurate than a fully rifled barrel?
And increases the range distance significantly?
More accurate (with sabot slugs) than a full smooth, but not quite up to a fully rifled barrel.
The tighter the group, the better the chances of scoring at longer distances. Don't forget that the drop, due to distance, doesn't change due to rifling, so the shooter still has to do his part. IOW a 6" group at 50yd could easily yield a miss (or worse a bad wound) at 100yd, but a 4" group at 100yd would lend the confidence to shoot 125yd or even 150yd and still make a good hit
For a "1 gun" hunter the tubes have the advantage, for those that used "specialized" guns, not so much.
I'm a match the gun to the terrain guy myself, but when the area is "shotgun only (IE: southern third of MI)" I have no problem running a rifled tube in one barrel (and 00 buck in the other).
BTW, the partial rifling idea is not new, the old "cape guns" often were made with rifling at just the muzzle0 -
If your shotgun has a tube in it now, why not try a rifle tube and see what you think? Cheaper than buying a new barrel. BUT use the sabots. I've used the tube with sabots for years with great results. Still try to hold my shots within 75 yards or so. Where I hunt this usually isn't a problem. Good luck. 0 -
I like the big Lyman hard cast sabot slug loaded hot. Out of my pistol gripped 870's 20 inch smooth bore with a Skeet #2 marked choke tube, 3 pound coffee cans at almost 100 yards would be dinner. A mid-bead helps a lot. 0 -
Do a search under paradox shotgun and you will see this concept was in
Practice sometime ago. But consider this the choke rifling will force the choke itself
Tighter into the barrel with each shot. so make sure you lube the threads. And then consider if improved accuracy is your goal a rifled barrel with a cantilevered scope mount will not only properly spin the projectile but provide a solid non moving attachment for the scope to the barrel itself. Plus you can use a whole assortment of different sabots. Then there is the question , where will the slugs group once you remove the choke and reinstall...my guess they will move. There is accuracy , then there is repeatable / dependable accuracy, so consider that when you go afield. Somethings are better not done unless you do it right.0 -
I have a HK paradox shotgun. It shoots slugs with great accuracy and also spins the wad on a regular shotgun to do extreme spreads of patterns for bird loads. By far my favorite upland bird gun. 0
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