Value of Ingram Mac-11 in .380 acp?
I have a friend who has a new in box(unfired) Ingram mfg(early 70's) Mac-11 in .380 acp. He is thinking of selling but is unsure of its current value. Any help on this would be appreciated.
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Live, legal, and transferrable? 0 -
The Mac-11 is probably the cheapest full auto gun on the market.
$3000- $6000.
IF paper work is righteous.0 -
This gun is Semi-auto, one of a small lot made this way back then. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by ammo guy
This gun is Semi-auto, one of a small lot made this way back then.
I'm guessing it's the open-bolt semi-auto version. (I assume you've made sure no one has altered it making it into an illegal machine gun.)
In the past, I've seen the early open-bolt Macs go for $1500+. My understanding is that they are considered just as an ordinary semi-auto -- and transfer just like any other semi-auto through an 01 dealer -- but have also heard, at least in one case, that ATF sent an actual agent to inspect the gun to be sure it wasn't illegally altered (I'm not sure if the 01 FFL selling it, asked for that "inspection" or how it happened if he didn't).
Someone has one in the auction, asking $2000:
http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=329625966
Here's another (starting bid, $1500): http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=328847688
Type in "open bolt" in the search box on the auction side and you'll see the market prices (look at closed auctions to see what some have actually sold for) for the Macs in other calibers besides 380 auto.0 -
Thanks for the info. I assume these that are listed are later mfg that the original Imgram mfg. The guy with the gun said this was a "grand fathered" one. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by ammo guy
Thanks for the info. I assume these that are listed are later mfg that the original Imgram mfg. The guy with the gun said this was a "grand fathered" one.
Don't believe thre is a grandfather in this...Check to see if its an open bolt and go from there.0 -
This sounds like the history as I remember reading it other places in the past. (I hate to admit, I'm old enough to remember some of it as it happened too):
From: http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature Articles/012001/Mac10History.htm
quote: Military Armament Corporation (MAC), based in Powder Springs Georgia from 1970-1976 was the first company to commercially produce the MAC Model 10 (MAC-10). This is the company started by Gordon Ingram that designed and built the first MAC (now you know where the name came from). MAC marketed a number of different weapons, but the MAC-10 (chambered in 9 mm and later in.45 ACP) and the high cyclic rate (approx. 1600 rpm) MAC-11 (chambered in .380) were its mainstays. MAC declared bankruptcy in 1976 and went out of business. A number of factors led to their demise, but the big reason was that little or no military interest in the MAC was generated. MAC sold its tooling and assets (registered and unregistered frames, and parts) to another Georgia-based company called RPB in 1977.
RPB (which has been rumored to stand for Rape, Plunder, and Burn) made the MAC in the same calibers as did the Powder Springs Plant, but in some collectors eyes the manufacturing was not on par with the original MAC. Nearly all of the machine guns that came from RPB were either frame flats, frames or completed guns which were bought from MAC in the auction. Because the machine gun market at that time was not as popular as it is today, RPB came up with a new marketing strategy, which was to offer the MAC-10 as a Title I weapon (a semi-automatic) creating an Open Bolt semi-automatic firearm. BATF stepped in mid-1982 and halted the manufacture of open bolt semi's because they were easily convertible to full-auto. About a year later, RPB went out of business.
SWD Incorporated. In 1983, Wayne Daniels, a former principal at RPB Industries, started his own company. He modified the existing MAC design and created the SWD (Sylvia and Wayne Daniels) M11/9. The gun was MASS-PRODUCED, and that is the reason that so many are still offered for sale NIB. When the MG ban went through in 1986, SWD sold the rights (or became part of) Cobray. Cobray started marketing the closed bolt design Cobray M11/9. This semi-auto uses the exact same MG receiver as did the SWD M11/9, with only a few exceptions (selector switch not drilled, sear pin, and re-enforcing plates absent). After the Assault Weapons Ban in 1994, the Cobray M11/9 could no longer be made, so Cobray re-marketed the gun with a non-threaded barrel and a mag release as the PM-11/9.
Did MAC make any semi-auto versions? The article says they came after MAC's bankruptcy and were built by RPB.
You need to get some photos of this one your friend has if it really is a semi-auto produced in the early 1970s.0 -
quote:Originally posted by mm8nambu
quote:Originally posted by ammo guy
Thanks for the info. I assume these that are listed are later mfg that the original Imgram mfg. The guy with the gun said this was a "grand fathered" one.
Don't believe thre is a grandfather in this...Check to see if its an open bolt and go from there.
A good place to start.
I might ask too: Do you, and/or your friend, understand what an "open bolt" semi-auto is and how it functions -- as opposed to closed-bolt semi-autos -- which is the function of most all semi-autos one will encounter?0 -
I think 1982 is the cut-off date for "grandfather". Here is a C&P..
RPB SM11-A1
Because of lagging sales, RPB was on the verge of going under from finical problems. In the late 1970s Wayne Daniel purchased a large majority of the companies stock and started to produce semi-auto versions of the M11-A1. By removing the collapsible stock and the ability to fire Full-Auto, the open bolt SM11-A1 became a Title 1 pistol and could be purchased by anyone.
These new semi versions of the M11 sold like hot cakes until the BATF intervened in 1982 because they felt these open bolt semi-auto copies could be converted to Full-Auto to easily. Because of this all open-bolt pistol produced after 1982 are considered Machine Guns and this is why we don't see semi-auto open bolt guns any more.
Luckily for owners of these semi-auto pistols all guns not modified on or produced before the ruling were grand fathered and not considered machine guns.
Unfortunately this ruling by the BATF hurt RPB financially and brought unwanted legal attention so Wayne Daniel dissolved the company in April 1982.
The RPB SM11-A1 is chambered in .380 ACP & uses steel magazines in either 16 or 32 round capacities. Unlike most M-11s it has no collapsible stock that extends from the butt of the weapon and only fires in semi-auto. It does use the open bolt method of operation & the end of the barrel is threaded to accept a silencer or other barrel accessory. Compared to other M-11s the RPB guns are generally of a higher quality.
The RPB SM11-A1s is rare because they are the last of the legal open-bolt semi-auto pistols. Because of this they command a good deal for a Title 1 pistol on the open market because MAC collectors are always on the look out for them.0 -
I believe the guy bought the gun in the late 70's so it should be grand fathered in. I have not seen it but plan to. I do know the difference in open vs closed bolt operation. 0
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