more on the Emil Kerner stalking rifle
Following up on the thread about the stalking rifle made by Emil Kerner and sons from another thread, (should have checked - regular UBB code doesn't seem to work here - the link is http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=589963 ) I was aware of the existence of the 5.6x35 Vierling round. That's why I thought the rifle I have here might have been produced in the 1920's. I knew there were other .22 rounds that were very similar to the Hornet being used by the Suhl rifle makers. I did fire 25 rounds of Hornet ammo in the rifle today and it worked perfectly including being very accurate. My big problem was how light the trigger is. I have some triggers that are about 6 oz. but that's the lowest I go on the firearms I own. This one is really light. It's a must that the rifle be pointed downrange in a safe direction before even touching the trigger. I'm sure with practice it would become easier to deal with but until then the rifle is a tough shooter IMO. The trigger works perfectly. I'm just not used to having one that light. And I did try shooting it without setting the trigger. Even then the rifle had a very light trigger.
Also the owner of the rifle has his own machine shop and he's certain he can make scope mounts if he wants to. I don't know if he would be willing to do that for anyone else though. He's spending the winter in Florida so it will be a few months before I could get him to ask about making parts for someone else.
spas12 I have seen rifles sell for around that price but I've seen them sell for more too. I guess I'm trying to learn what the difference is. Maybe it's just the way the auctions went.
Also the owner of the rifle has his own machine shop and he's certain he can make scope mounts if he wants to. I don't know if he would be willing to do that for anyone else though. He's spending the winter in Florida so it will be a few months before I could get him to ask about making parts for someone else.
spas12 I have seen rifles sell for around that price but I've seen them sell for more too. I guess I'm trying to learn what the difference is. Maybe it's just the way the auctions went.
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I looked back through some edits to some posts made in the original thread and found some comments I had not seen before. First I'm not really arguing about the price of the rifle. I know it will bring what it will bring. I was pointing out that I've seen similar rifles bring far more than the $300 or so some have suggested it was worth. There are a lot of these rifles around actually and some are very ornate and naturally bring a lot more money. But even the plain models bring a pretty fair price.
Here's a list of prices for similar rifles that I found "elsewhere". And of course I can't mention the link here.
"New Krieghoff Hubertus Stalking Rifle in .270Win.. $8,500.00
Merkel K1 - JAGD .270 Game Scene Single Shot 24 in barrel $2,595.00
Herold" top break single shot in 25-35 $1,350.00
Remo K Hochwildbuchse ~ 1929 ~ 8.15 X 46 R double set triggers & double folding leaf sights. Claw mount scope bases. $1,750.00
Fr. Jung Drilling Type 16 x 16 x 9mm SxS $2,499.99
J. Ansorg gun Maker for Royalty $7,500
MILLER & VAL GREISS PRE WAR SINGLE SHOT RIFLE 8X75 RS
28" 1/2 ROUND 1/2 OCTAGON WITH A FULL LENGTH RIB AND 2 LEAF EXPRESS SIGHT AND A ZEISS 6X42 SCOPE WITH A CLAW MOUNT DOUBLE SET TRIGGER PISTOL GRIP $8,500.00"
Before anyone says it I understand that most of these rifles are much more ornate than the one I have here. But not all of them are. And I have seen others here that were very plain. I certainly don't think the rifle I have here is anywhere near the high priced rifles on this page but it isn't chopped liver either. I've seen similar rifles sell for around $1500 on this board and others. I don't see anything to keep this rifle I have from selling for at least $1000. Again the proof is in the pudding as they say. I was just providing this information to show where I was coming from with my opinion. Another poster on this board said he paid $1600 for a rifle similar to mine for example. There is a market and the prices are fairly high. Some are ridiculously high but not for a rifle like this one.
The list above is far from the complete list from that other site. It doesn't include nearly all the info either. I'd be glad to mention where I got the info but I can't in this forum. If anyone wants to know just say so and I'll email you the link. Just keep in mind that some of the rifles listed here are very similar to what I have.0 -
Your point is well taken . I was just trying to give you a heads-up on the possibility that one might be disappointed on the prospects of what your rifle would bring on this auction site. Yours is one of those items That if started at a very low Price may bring a lot of bids but stall at much LOWER then you expect My opinion[:)] but also have a pit -fall to your expectations if you start at a high price or with any kind of reserve auction may never get a bid at all. If you run an auction with a reserve YOU will "again in my opinion" loss 80% of the people that MIGHT be interested in an Item like this because They along with myself NEVER EVER even LOOK at ANY auction with a reserve [:0] . I do wish you good luck contrary to what might be conceived as negative opinion as to value. Karl. Please post Item # if you do put it for sale 0 -
If the owner can make the correct mounts so that a scope can be mounted, it will increase the value of the rifle substantially, IMHO. I would hold off on selling it until then. 0 -
If you are selling it and want top $. You need to cast the chamber and have the barrel slugged. then you will remove all doubt as to what it is set up to shoot.
Back i the day it was not uncommon to have guns recalibered. They simply put the barrel on one of the many surplus machines the US sold off after the war and rebored and recut the rifling. Having never done that I have no idea if they could change from the .208 referenced to .223 or not.
Having the chamber cast and the barrel slugged will give a positive answer.
When at the gunsmith for that work they can also look at the triggers and see if there is something wrong. 2 ounce is kind of light, however that is why set triggers were used, so you can have a light pull when ready to take a shot. Never set the trigger until you are ready to commit.0 -
Casting the chamber is one way to find what the caliber the rifle is chambered. Also, if I remember correctly, the 3/25 may be the month and year the rifle was proofed. 0 -
That's what I've been thinking too rufe-snow. No sense selling the thing when a little work could add a lot to the value. And the owner is in Florida until April so it may be a while.
BTW I don't think this is a rifle that a person lets go to the people looking to get lucky buying something really valuable for practically nothing. This rifle would do just that for someone who got it cheap and I couldn't let that happen. It wouldn't be fair to the owner. I'm sure he would rather keep it than give it away. There are other ways to skin a cat. I'd rather sell here because I have some other stuff to sell and I'm looking to establish a reputation but I'm not low balling my friend's rifle just to get off on the right foot personally. I couldn't do that. If you're telling me I can't get a good price unless I offer it up for nothing it sounds like the wrong place to sell that rifle. It's too risky. If it was mine I might do that but it isn't.0 -
Kentucky,
Something to point out here with some of the rifles you mentioned above.
The first two being the most obvious to most of us 'non-collector' types. That is the NAME. Merkels and Krieghoffs are well known as a 'high quality' firearm. A Winchester 70 pre '64 is a very good quality firearm. But when it comes to all out accuracy, the Rem 700 is a better (easier let's say) rifle to make more accurate. In most cases for less money than one of the older Win 70's. Who'da thunk those 'cheap' Savages would have OWNED Bisley last time out? Ever see a Holland and Holland shoot sub MOA? Not many that's for sure. And, I've seen some very well done rifles (ornate and accurate) that don't bring a tenth of what a Holland and Holland or a Purdy would bring.
The point I'm making here about price is the NAME. Like Shakespeare said, "What's in a name?" If you don't have a big name, it's not going to bring a premium. Name brand recognition is huge in the world of marketing something.
Now, if it is a big name but just not known to the public, you have to go where that circle buys their guns. This is a lot more of a public auction that attracts many. Even though there are some serious high dollar collector types monitoring the auction, they can't catch every 'good' piece that comes through to bid on it. Or, even they may need some time to research it before they bid.
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My suggestion is to start it where you feel it ought to go. Don't start it low. Because if it doesn't sell for what you want, you won't get it back.
As far as a reserve, most here agree, that'll put people off from even bidding. It gives us that 'carrot on a string feeling' so why waste the time.0 -
I'm afraid you just aren't familiar with the companies in the Suhl region friend. First and most likely to be associated with that region would be the .22 that became known as the Suhl 150, which is still a favorite of the bench rest crowd. I know a guy who won the ARA championship with that rifle. It is known as the East German version of the Anschutz if that tells you anything. Then there are companies like Sauer and really a long list of other companies from that region. In fact they were well known to make the most accurate rifles in the world at the time. The only way the Winchesters and later the Remingtons beat them was by getting the price way down. The German rifles were all hand crafted which means expensive.
Let's look at the trigger here. That double set trigger adjusts all the way down to 2 oz.. That's very light. And those triggers were common on rifles made all over Germany and Austria.
In short those German rifles had the biggest names in accuracy of that era. Those are the rifles that were beat out for the mass market by Winchester and later Remington and then Savage but that isn't to say those German rifles weren't very accurate. They were.
Let's also talk about the Schuetzen rifles. Schuetzen competition is the oldest known form of firearms competition. It was a military only thing for centuries but it took off as a civilian pastime in the 1840's. Yes I meant to say centuries. The competition dates back to the 14th century from what I've read.
In short those guys in Germany wrote the book on accuracy. The American rifles really never exceeded their accuracy by a big margin. What they did was sell much cheaper rifles that would compete. But they didn't win for a very long time. Only the wars ended the reign of the German rifles in the accuracy department in fact.
So we are talking collectors items here although one like the one I have could be an every day rifle if a person had the ability to make parts if something should go wrong. Like the Suhl 150, finding spare parts if a real adventure. But that isn't why people buy these rifles. If people want great accuracy for cheap they buy a Savage these days. I bought a 12 LRPV single shot with the target trigger and action myself. That doesn't detract from the value of the German masterpieces any more than it detracts from the Pennsylvania and Kentucky long rifle values. And the increasing rarity of these rifles drives up the price also. Two world wars and two totalitarian regimes put a real dent in the number of these rifles still around. And they aren't making any more of the old names like Kerner. And yes Kerner was a big name from the region. I've heard it said that his designs were the final designs for the 150.
But other gun makers from the region went on to great things also. The biggest name in the region at the time was probably the Haenel Schmeisser Pistol made by a combination of two old firearms making families (most of those operations started out as family operations with the old apprentice and master approach to craftsmanship). Haenel went on to work for the Nazis where he helped develop the STURMGEWEHR. He made the actions for the early prototypes that eventually led to the production of the 44. The other well known gunsmith from that firm, Schmeisser, was captured by the Soviets and was instrumental in the design of the AK-47. He later returned to the Suhl region and made firearms under the Haenel name for many years.
Other notably firearms from the region include the Lugers among others. The Suhl region was to firearms what Detroit once was to the US auto industry. It was huge and Kerner is a well known player in that field. Shooting sports were very important to the Germans especially when Hitler instituted the back to nature training for his youth movement. Accurate rifles were part of the training those children received.
Trust me those rifles are collectors items with some being far more so than others obviously. But even the low level rifles were worth a pretty good price. I do know that an H&H rifle is not the most accurate thing in the world but that's not the reason people buy them. They're knkown as super powerful large game rifles that go bang when you pull the trigger.0 -
I own an Emil Kerner Drilling. Excellent quality, heavily engraved. It's a masterpiece. I would consider owning a Kerner stalking rifle, but it would need a lot more condition. My Kerner was proofed in March, 1926. 8X72R rifle chamber is stamped on the barrel lug as 7.7mm, my bore slugs .318". 0 -
I'm just a dumb ole hillbilly. I don't know what you mean by "would need a lot more condition". Does that mean it needs to be in better condition? I'm not looking to make a fortune on this rifle BTW. I don't think I would let it go for $300 but I'm not expecting the kind of money those masterpieces bring. Some of those puppies are quite beautiful and obviously involved a whole lot of hand crafting. Many of them were made for royalty or at least nobility. Mine is not one of those. Are you looking for one of those rifles or rather are you saying you'd consider one? Again I'm not likely to even try to sell this one until some scope mounts get fabricated anyway. The guy who does that stuff is a real artist. In fact he works as an artist. He not only turns out great work but he does it amazingly fast. I'm very lucky to live in the house he built even if he didn't care as much about practical stuff as I did when I built my house. 
I'd love to see some photos of your rifle if you have any.0
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