value of a "Emil Kerner u. Sohn" stalking rifle
I am going to try to sell a stalking rifle made by "Emil Kerner u. Sohn" which is a German Suhl region gun maker. This is a single shot, .22 Hornet rifle with a break barrel design. It has a double set trigger, an octagon barrel and a cheek weld piece on the rear stock. I've seen the same parts used on many stalking rifles and also on German Schuetzen rifles. The only thing different about this rifle is that it has a front stock that is more like a Schuetzen rifle than a stalking rifle but I've seen other stalking rifles that used the thinner front stocks. Of course the Schuetzen rifles were competition rifles meant to be shot off hand so they kept the weight down on the front of the rifle especially since they were using fairly heavy barrels anyway.
The rifle appears to be from the 1920's or 1930's. It has an even patina on the barrel and receiver and a very nice finish on the stock. The trigger is very light (it's set to 2 ounces according to the owner and that sounds right - I told my wife it was a 2 oz. trigger before I asked the owner). Also it does have the claw type scope mounts that many of these rifles used.
There is a small chip in the stock next to the receiver but it isn't a problem for the operation of the rifle. It has some slight pitting in the bore from firing black powder rounds according to the owner. I don't see much damage myself
I have these photos of the rifle and more. It would help me a great deal to have an idea what this rifle is worth before I attempt to sell it. I intend to put it up for auction but I do think a modest reserve price should be set because I know some rifles of this type are pretty expensive. I don't know about this particular model though. I do know the maker made a name for himself as another of the great Suhl region gun makers. Him and his sons made rifles for many years.
Any help here would be appreciated.
The rifle appears to be from the 1920's or 1930's. It has an even patina on the barrel and receiver and a very nice finish on the stock. The trigger is very light (it's set to 2 ounces according to the owner and that sounds right - I told my wife it was a 2 oz. trigger before I asked the owner). Also it does have the claw type scope mounts that many of these rifles used.
There is a small chip in the stock next to the receiver but it isn't a problem for the operation of the rifle. It has some slight pitting in the bore from firing black powder rounds according to the owner. I don't see much damage myself
I have these photos of the rifle and more. It would help me a great deal to have an idea what this rifle is worth before I attempt to sell it. I intend to put it up for auction but I do think a modest reserve price should be set because I know some rifles of this type are pretty expensive. I don't know about this particular model though. I do know the maker made a name for himself as another of the great Suhl region gun makers. Him and his sons made rifles for many years.
Any help here would be appreciated.
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The German Proof Marks on the underside of barrel and watertable might help pin down age.
As the Hornet didn't come on the market until the early 30's. The cartridge it was originally chambered for was the 5.6 X 35 metric version of the 22 Winchester.
Most of these guns came back as souvenirs with our G.I.'s after the war. As the German civilians had to turn in all their firearms, are guys got the pick of the litter. Because of this probably it's greatest value would be back in the fatherland for some German collector.
EDIT #1, "3/25" is the date of proof March 1925. "5.3" is the bore diameter in millimeters, approximately .208+ in our measurement. Seems that would be kind of a tight fit for our .22 Hornet with .223/.224 OD.
Unfortunately I agree price wise with PS on the current FMV, unless you could make direct contact with collector in Germany who wanted it.
EDIT #2, With a DOM of 1925 and a bore diameter of .208+, I expect it was chambered for the older lead bullet, 19th Century, version of the .22 Winchester centerfire. More then likely it was opened up with a .22 Hornet reamer when it got here. Have you ever slugged the bore? My guess it would probably mike out at .320/.321?
For a stalking rifle it's quite plain in appearance. That with peppery bore, no original scope/mounts, etc. would affect it's FMV on this side of the pond.
EDIT #3, Arguing with us about your take on it's current FMV, is pointless! Put it on the auction with a minimum bid that you can live with, and go for it. If it sells for what you think it's worth, you can come back and rub it in our faces. And laugh your butt off at us.0 -
I have heard that it may not have originally been chambered for the Hornet. It's been shooting .22 Hornet ammo for a long time now though. I would think it had to be made for it but it could be that it was just really close and it became close enough. I don't see any signs of any damage that might have occurred from using a cartridge that didn't seat right though. I suppose it is possible though but I've never seen anything like that happen. The closest thing I can think of would be the Broomhandle pistols and the Tokarev pistols using a very similar cartridge but not quite the same. Plus the 7.62 X 25 machine guns used by the Czech army were different than the 7.62 X 25 Tokarev rounds.
The proof marks mention a 5.3mm but that doesn't match up with anything other than a Soviet pistol round from much later. I'm pretty sure it's a 1930's rifle but there were some odd sizes for rounds earlier and there was some work with the early version of the Hornet earlier. But like you said it's most likely a 1930's rifle.
I know a lot of rifles came back to the states from the war but I live in the Cincinnati region where Schuetzen competitions were very popular before the war. There is a very large German heritage in this area and the rifles were around before the war here or at least the Schuetzen rifles were. They are so similar in many ways that I can't be sure it wasn't intended as a Schuetzen rifle. There were a lot of gun makers in the Suhl region and they all seemed to use a standard set of parts together with their own personal touches as far as the finger rest goes and also the checkering and the engraving that came on many of the rifles. Those ornate rifles with lots of art work can really be expensive. But this one seems to have minimal art work. There is some. There are crowns and flowers around the receiver and checkering on the stock.
I do have a photo of the proof marks. Maybe you can tell something about the information there. I was told the 5.3mm was likely a measurement of the actual bore size instead of the size of the bullet. Conventions were different there and so much has been lost between the Nazis and the Communists not to mention the war (where almost all records were destroyed because the Suhl region was an arms manufacturing center). Plus there's the fact that so many rifles were brought back after the war and very few records exist about that. There are some records of soldiers bringing back rifles but it's far from a complete record of what happened. Soldiers were supposed to get permission I believe which meant paperwork but that didn't always happen as you might guess. I'm sure you've heard the stories and seen the movies and know all about the German memorabilia coming back to the US in every form imaginable.
Anyway here's a photo of the proof marks. I've tried to research this stuff but information is hard to come by.0 -
Be aware that the Germans may have used Bore Diameter or Groove diameter.Thus .5.5mm. Many pre war Drillings and Veirlling "spelling" used 22 hornet Your rifle while nice will really be hurt by the fact of no scope and no Claw Mounts. on top of that very limited market. I suspect it would take the RIGHT person to pay over $300.00
EDIT IF you can get the scope bases that would be a big plus. And the claw mounts most likely will only fit that rifle as they were hand fitted and be of very little use to anyone trying to use on another gun. It would be much easier to fit a modern scope to the original claw mounts then starting from no rings at all. Now lets look at Value . Ask yourself if 1000 people walk into a gun show how many will be looking for a Stalking rifle [?] As a double set trigger 22 hornet it would make a fine Ground Hog gun If you have a scope mounted. The original rings would most likely add $200.00 to the value because then the rifle could be used rather then just a neat to own item. I still dont think people will be knocking down the doors to purchase . I have taken a friends collection of Fine Drillings to many Big Gunshows Louisville Ky
The old guys on HOVER-ROUNDS really like looking at your vintage guns but VERY VERY FEW change hands. Sort of like antique Cars the people that spend mony are on items that their farther could buy not their grand-father You can hardly give an A model FORD in % condition and that is also true on collector Quality guns like the condition yours is. I would hope as another poster on this subject stated you will let us know how wrong we are if you sell your nice little rifle for big bucks. Might give me hope to take my friends drillings to a show0 -
It does have iron sights. The owner says he can get access to the claw mounts but the original scope will be tougher. But $300 is significantly different from the prices I've seen on other stalking rifles even without the scope. I suppose that's why they have reserve bidding because there's no way I'd let it go for that price. It shoots incredibly well and is in very good condition considering the time period it was made.
Can I ask if you're basing your opinion on something you've seen and can you direct me to what made you think that? I'd really like to know. Thanks for the help.0 -
A quick search of the GunBroker Auction side show many Drillings with only one receiving bids and two Stalking rifles both getting no bids.Like Perry Shooter said,it's a very limited market for these types of guns. 0 -
Actually there are auction sites that are particular to these guns. And I have seen where lots of these rifles have sold. Some of them bring ridiculous amounts of money in fact but they are guns made for royalty etc.. The one I have is not like that by any means.
I would never mention any other board here. That wouldn't be fair in the least. But it's not like there is no market for these rifles. There is. Maybe not here but I'd rather sell it here if I could. At the same time I'm not going to give it away. It's really no skin off my nose either way. It's not my rifle. But I have done my homework for a friend. I want to be as fair as possible to everyone involved. I'm not here to make some big fortune. But I know what I've seen. I'm asking here to get more information. But this wasn't my first stop.
I did find this rifle here. The photos are gone but there was a lot of similarity. If you read the description you'll probably see that the rifles were close in nature. Same trigger, same barrel, same stock, same sights only without the claw mount. Scopes weren't allowed on Schuetzen rifles. But they were very similar to the stalking rifles.0 -
a few years back I got an east german (shul) stalking rifle. It is made by "Griefelt" and it is chambered in 6.5x58r. I thought it would be possible to find the scope rings but no luck so far. The mounts om my rifle look identical to the ones on your rifle. If you h appen upon a source for claw mounts please let me know. I paid $1600 for my rifle and the condition is similar to your rifle. 0 -
Here's a similar rifle that sold http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=315863567 0 -
My bet is, it's chambered for the 5.6x35 Vierling. A .22 Hornet will chamber and fire, but dimensions are not the same. It was the Euro version, and pre-dated the Hornet. 0 -
From New England Custom Guns: "Average price to fit claw mount rings to existing claw mount bases: $725" 0
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