JHP in 30 carbine
was talking about loading some 30cal JHP and a trusted source told me in the air force they tested various ammo and with heavy clothing the tip tends to clog and not expand , said in most situations a soft point preforms better with more reliable expansion. what do you think and have you heard anything like this before?
0
-
Your post isn't clear. There is a great difference between handgun and rifle bullets do to the differences in velocity. Modern handgun bullets have been specifically designed to expand even through heavy clothing. 30 caliber hollow point rifle bullets on the other hand are more lethal due to fragmentation, and yawing at high velocity. Even if they don't expand. 0 -
so you are saying that where rifle ammo is concerned JHP may not be a good option? 30cal is not that much hotter than some pistol mag loads I would have thought it would have similar performance? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by kdixon
so you are saying that where rifle ammo is concerned JHP may not be a good option? 30cal is not that much hotter than some pistol mag loads I would have thought it would have similar performance?
The JHP 30 cal rifle ammo that I was referencing had a muzzle velocity in excess of 2500 fps. Either through fragmentation or yawing at that velocity, lethality wouldn't be a problem. IMHO.0 -
quote:Originally posted by kdixon
was talking about loading some 30cal JHP and a trusted source told me in the air force they tested various ammo and with heavy clothing the tip tends to clog and not expand , said in most situations a soft point preforms better with more reliable expansion. what do you think and have you heard anything like this before?
What specifically 30 caliber cartridge are you talking about? There re literally thousands of both pistol and rifle cartridges that house 30 caliber bullets.
Best0 -
30 cal carbine although I need to check and see what cartridge he was referring to for his data, been reloading since 80 but have only done pistol, didn't shoot enough rifle to do it. rifle was cheap in quanities that I used it, things have changed! Its not the lethality that I am questioning its the added expense if a soft point will work better under more conditions. Any carbine load will kill. 0 -
Years back we loaded some carbine with spire points, ugly as sin, they looked like you had run them thru a pencil sharpener, but that was before Gore invented the internet and they were the only soft points we could find locally to load for hunting purposes. Had to keep the action clean and feed ramped had to be polished but they expanded nicely. I never loaded any JHP for them as the carbine was replaced by a mini 14 the next year and the carbine was retired. I don't buy into cloging causing nonexpansion.
Edit: For all intents and purposes the 30 carbine is a pistol cartridge.0 -
The more I think about it, I think he was talking pistol ammo. I don't think this would happen with 30 carbine, its velocity and size of hollow cavity I dont see it. Just wondered if anyone else had heard something similar before. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by kdixon
was talking about loading some 30cal JHP and a trusted source told me in the air force they tested various ammo and with heavy clothing the tip tends to clog and not expand , said in most situations a soft point preforms better with more reliable expansion. what do you think and have you heard anything like this before?
First of all, Hague ("Geneva") convention prohibits use of expanding ammo during war. That's one big reason why virtually all standard issue military ammo is "full metal jacket" or "ball" ammo.
US military POLICE can use expanding ammo in their handguns for keeping the peace, but this is basically a non-warfare application. So its not entirely clear to me what application your friend was talking about.
The answer to your question depends on bullet design.
Yes, some hollow point designs don't reliably expand, either by design, or by failure of design.
In fact, the US military is currently using hollowpoint .308 ammo in sniper rifles because they've found it to be more accurate. Their legal eagles say that since it isn't MEANT to expand, and doesn't do so reliably, the ammo doesn't violate the Hague convention prohibition against using expanding ammo in wartime. Whether this is legally correct or not is an interesting question (I don't think it has ever been contested in an an international court), but we are using this ammo in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
As already mentioned, conventional jacketed .223 rifle ammo can fragment into a zillion pieces after impact with a human target. So even though it doesn't "expand" in the conventional sense, it still can make a devastating and difficult to repair wound.
Also, as already mentioned, there has also been considerable improvement in handgun bullet design over the last 25 years, and now there are plenty of hollowpoint handgun bullets out there that will reliably penetrate clothing and still expand. Whether or not these expanding hollowpoints are better or worse than similarly-expanding soft point ammo is a whole other question, beyond the scope of this post.
quote:he said they were only using them stateside, thanks for the info. I may have to do my own test to know for sure. Before I start down this road I want to know what bullet has the most reliable expansion in a 30 carbine platform.
Someone else please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought US military discontinued use of the M1 carbine 40 years ago at the end of the Vietnam ear. How long ago was this testing done?
Anyway, even if your .30 carbine round doesn't expand, from a real M1 it ought to still puts out a 110 grain bullet at nearly 2000 feet per second, making it reasonably comparable to a .357 magnum with a light bullet from a long barrel. I think that still ought to be plenty effective for its intended purpose of personal defense at close range.0 -
he said they were only using them stateside, thanks for the info. I may have to do my own test to know for sure. Before I start down this road I want to know what bullet has the most reliable expansion in a 30 carbine platform. 0 -
John Farnham plugs the Corbon DPX all copper hollowpoint for .30 Carbine.
Jim Cirillo liked the regular JSP but that was before the modern assortment of trick bullets.0 -
I picked up the JHP the other day because thats all there was, I do still have plenty of FMJ which I am sure will perform. I at first thought JHP might be something to try because I have never seen any factory on the shelf, now if anything is on the shelf its a miracle 0 -
The 85gr. soft point bullet for the 7.62x25 works.
I'm shooting it out of a Marlin 62 and it did expand by about 50-60 percent in the shoulder of a fox.0 -
Thats good to know could you give the next one a winter coat before you shoot, haha. I found some old 30 cal norma 92.6gr FMJ that I will use for high velocity rounds, got them for a 30 cal luger about 30 years ago and never loaded, way too loud, Forgot I had them my last look at the store shelves made me remember. My biggest problem is the city people throwing their dog away out where I live, soon as they get up a pack they try to kill my livestock. They dont wear thick coats and have not had any problem with penetration only multiple targets which is why I need an assault rifle. So far the sign at the bottom of the driveway that says survivors will be shot has kept the others honest. 0
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
13 comments