Springfield M6 22lr/410 (45lc or slug ability?)
I have been looking to buy one of these now discontiued Springfield M6 survival rifles. I have seen one seller list these as having the ability to shoot .45 Colt (or long colt) and the wiki mentions slugs. The few that list chokes, say they are built-in and all have mentioned full choke (not sure they were all that way, just those that mention it at all, says that).
So, do you think these guns would be safe to shoot either .45 Colt, or .410 slugs in it? I realize it might not be accurate, but we'll worry about that IF it can even shoot them.
Thanks. [:)]
So, do you think these guns would be safe to shoot either .45 Colt, or .410 slugs in it? I realize it might not be accurate, but we'll worry about that IF it can even shoot them.
Thanks. [:)]
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Any ship can be a mine sweeper once. A .452 or a .454 bullet in a .410 hole doesn't sound good. A .410 slug should be fine, but usually works better in a improved cylinder choke.
A long time ago I shot 5 .383 hard cast round balls in a full choked .410. Would print interlocking holes like the Olympic symbol at 40 yards.0 -
quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
Any ship can be a mine sweeper once. A .452 or a .454 bullet in a .410 hole doesn't sound good. A .410 slug should be fine, but usually works better in a improved cylinder choke.
A long time ago I shot 5 .383 hard cast round balls in a full choked .410. Would print interlocking holes like the Olympic symbol at 40 yards.
Charlie got it right again! The full choke .410 barrel has a I.D. of approximately .390? Firing a .452 diameter, 250 grain, 45 Colt bullet through it, would likely have dire affects on both the shooter and firearm.
Go with 410 slugs or even better one of the multi ball loads Charlie suggested. I to have loaded similar multi ball loads for a Taurus Judge years ago. At short range, (<15 yds). They would be much more effective then an .410 slug.0 -
I don't know about the Springfield but I have a New England Firearms Survivor .410 single shot shotgun. It will fire the .45 LC but I have not fired the .45 LC yet. I am planning on going to the range in two days to test fire the .45 shell & a slug shell.
The barrel is rifled and has a screw in modified choke. The choke is supposed to be removed prior to firing the .45 LC cartridge. I do not know if mine is ok with a traditional plastic bodied slug shell, but I don't see why not if it will fire the .45 LC. Maybe the .410 slug will rattle around down the .45 cal bore on it's way out.
I have some of those Russian full metal.410 Saiga shells. I fired one and the accuracy was great at 25 yards, but the shell did not want to come out. Little to no recoil. I used a cleaning rod to knock it free. The shell had a longitudinal crack at about the half way point in the shell.
I hope this helps somewhat.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 1sgret
I don't know about the Springfield but I have a New England Firearms Survivor .410 single shot shotgun. It will fire the .45 LC but I have not fired the .45 LC yet. I am planning on going to the range in two days to test fire the .45 shell & a slug shell.
The barrel is rifled and has a screw in modified choke. The choke is supposed to be removed prior to firing the .45 LC cartridge. I do not know if mine is ok with a traditional plastic bodied slug shell, but I don't see why not if it will fire the .45 LC. Maybe the .410 slug will rattle around down the .45 cal bore on it's way out.
I have some of those Russian full metal.410 Saiga shells. I fired one and the accuracy was great at 25 yards, but the shell did not want to come out. Little to no recoil. I used a cleaning rod to knock it free. The shell had a longitudinal crack at about the half way point in the shell.
I hope this helps somewhat.
To prevent misguided folks from firing .454 Casul and .460 S & W in those firearms. The manufacturers have a raised flange/shoulder machined in the chamber. This causes the problem you noted with the Russian ammo.
I had the same thing happen with the Judge, specially with my handloads. The best shells to use for reloading are Winchester AA's. The plastic is much tougher and doesn't lock up around the flange in the chamber.0 -
Charlie has it.
.45LC rounds are not safe to fire from an "ordinary" .410 shotgun. There are guns that are deliberately designed to fire both (they have oversized bores), but I don't think this Springfield is one of them. If you want the ability to fire both, then skip the Springfield and buy a gun that can handle .45s by design (eg the NEF).
Despite this, could you get away with it? Maybe. . .
Believe it or not, soft lead bullets (like .45LC slugs) can be swaged down fairly dramatically travelling through undersized bores. To me the issue is just whether or not the bullet would obstruct the barrel at the breech (then bulge or rupture the barrel).
"Just" because the bore is under .410 and the bullet is .450, doesnt' by itself mean you're necessarily going to blow up the gun. There is a video on you tube of a guy firing a .444 marlin (!) through a .410 shotgun then (I guess to add insult to injury) firing a .454 Casull magnum through one, without apparent injury to the gun:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAnbDvLIAac
This, obviously, was just to prove it "could" be done. But just because you "can" get away with this once, twice, or even a dozen times, doesn't make it a good idea to try. To me, trying to run a .45LC through a .410 is a "no" unless its literally a life or death situation and that combo is all you had available.
In this particular case, I suspect the safety issue is probably moot anyway. If you were to try it, I suspect you'd find that you couldn't even get a a normal .45LC cartridge to fit in the chamber of the Springfield particular .410; the bullet is probably too wide.0 -
Well, that is basically what I believed too. I have been looking for one of the M6's and there are a few listed as .410/.45 colt such as:
http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=328666414
I can't see any of the pictures that specifically denote .45 on the shotgun barrel.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bambihunter
Well, that is basically what I believed too. I have been looking for one of the M6's and there are a few listed as .410/.45 colt such as:
http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=328666414
I can't see any of the pictures that specifically denote .45 on the shotgun barrel.
It might be "LISTED" as 410/45LC, but it is clearly "MARKED" 22 Hornet, and 410. I don't care what, or how it is listed, abide by what it says on the gun. As a matter of fact, I might suggest to pass on that gun, as most like it's integrity has been breeched by the current owner, stuffing something in it, that shouldn't have been. As you can see, that seller has a "NR-Not Rated" rating, and is obviously trying to make this into something, that somebody wants.
For what its worth, IMHO, the 45LC/410 chambering is highly over rated, and pushed on/to the unknowing, by marketing folks, who make it sound like a great thing. It actually does neither, that well, acting as a shotgun, or a rifle.
As you have been well advised, DO not shoot anything in a 410 marked barrel, other than a 410. The 410/45LC barrels are actually 45 Colt barrels with a ringed, or flanged chamber, only to accept 45 LC, or 410 shot shells(some 2 1/2", and some 3").
Best
Bambihunter,
I'm sorry, but as Larry Potterfield says, "thats the way it is". I have had a T/C Contender in 45LC/410 before, and it did not impress me as being close to a shotgun, or handgun/rifle.
quote:.45LC is a decent enough round by itself, ballistically equivalent to (or even better than) .45ACP. The problem with this one is that .44 magnum has basically replaced it. Yes, you have your cowboy action shooters who like it, and some number of "gun nuts" who'll carry it for nostalgia reasons, or just to be different. But in terms of actual ballistics, the .44 magnum can do anything an ordinary .45LC can do, plus .44 magnum is a round you're likely to find on a shelf anywhere ammo is sold. .45LC?. . .only in a well-stocked gunstore, or online.
That is not 100% correct. When loaded to be safe in ALL guns, including the blackpowder framed Colt SAA's, and its colones, yes, the result is similar to 45 ACP power. In fact, the 45 ACP was indeed engineered to come as close to the 45 Colt as possible, in power.
The 45 Colt, as a hunting cartridge in guns like a T/C Contender, Ruger BlackHawk, S&W 25, Freedom Arms, etc has the ability to SURPASS, yes, that is correct, SURPASS ANY 44 Remington Magnum load power wise. No, sir, I did not mix or mingle words, I did say SURPASS ANY.
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Bambihunter,
I just want to clear things up on my end, that a combination gun, with a 22 caliber barrel, be it center fire or rimfire, and a 410 barrel, do in fact make very useful guns.
Unlike other's, my belief is a 410 is a good shotgun for youth/beginner's, to expert's for skeet shooting. It posseses ample power for mice to deer(yes, the 410 load that uses 3, 000 buck pellets, out of my EAA, IZH-43, SxS, will stack all six pellets in an 8 inch circle at 30 yards, at the point of aim. That is a devastating deer gun!), when in the right hands, with the right loads. Unfortunately, in my view, those same loads are pretty much diminished, when stuffed into a 45LC/410 handgun.
I also believe, that the M6, with the 22 Hornet barrel, does not need to have a 45LC option, as you can do the same things with the 22 Hornet, further out. So the 410/22 Hornet would be a fine combination gun...I just don't care for the squeeze trigger on the M6.
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TSR, you keep raining on my parade. [;)] But, I think it is now drilled into my thick skull. I have often believed that a compromise between two things makes it good at neither; this seems to be an example of such.
Thanks everyone!0 -
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
For what its worth, IMHO, the 45LC/410 chambering is highly over rated, and pushed on/to the unknowing, by marketing folks, who make it sound like a great thing. It actually does neither, that well, acting as a shotgun, or a rifle.
I couldn't agree with that more.
The most interesting thing about .45 and .410 is that by sheer coincidence of design, the overall cartridge sizes of both are close enough that its possible to engineer a gun that can fire either (albeit badly).
But if you look at either round by itself, NEITHER of them, IMO, are all that interesting.
.410 by itself is basically used for introducing small children to shotgunning. The round itself lacks power, and is effectively useless for hunting anything bigger than a rabbit or dove past about 15 yards. These also tend to pattern badly from overbored and rifled .45 caliber barrels. Yes, I'd rather have a .410 than "nothing", but IMO a 20 gauge is really the minimum for hunting/wingshooting.
.45LC is a decent enough round by itself, ballistically equivalent to (or even better than) .45ACP. The problem with this one is that .44 magnum has basically replaced it. Yes, you have your cowboy action shooters who like it, and some number of "gun nuts" who'll carry it for nostalgia reasons, or just to be different. But in terms of actual ballistics, the .44 magnum can do anything an ordinary .45LC can do, plus .44 magnum is a round you're likely to find on a shelf anywhere ammo is sold. .45LC?. . .only in a well-stocked gunstore, or online.
Also, you didn't ask, but IMO the M6 itself is also overrated (well. . .to be fair, I'm not sure anyway really rates this gun highly, so maybe it isn't "overrated").
For what it is. . .an inexpensive light folding rifle designed to be stowed by downed aircraft crew for survival. . .its OK. But the finish is rough (the gun has sharp edges), the trigger is bizarre, the sights are poor, the gun lacks niceties like an actual forearm, and the standard chambering (.22 hornet/.410) is a bit weird. As a kind of conversation/nostalgia piece this is OK, and sure, it could work as a survival weapon, but IMO in the 21st century, you'd probably be just as well served with a decent .22 semiauto pistol with a dot sight on it as a "survival" gun.
quote:The 45 Colt, as a hunting cartridge in guns like a T/C Contender, Ruger BlackHawk, S&W 25, Freedom Arms, etc has the ability to SURPASS, yes, that is correct, SURPASS ANY 44 Remington Magnum load power wise
Edit: Yes, I know with max-heavy loads (ie so-called ".45LC +P") a .45LC can surpass .44 magnum. That's why I said the .44 magnum can do anything an ORDINARY .45LC can do.
The problem is that these overpressure .45LC loads are only safe in a limited number of guns, typically overbuilt Ruger or Freedom Arms Revolvers. (Note that you can typically "overload" .44 magnums from these same platforms too, if you really wanted to). Put them in ordinary 45LC SAA clones or derringers or such, and they may damage the gun, possibly even "grenading" it.
In practice, there are a limited number of these .45LC+P rounds commercially available (Buffalo Bore and Corbon offer them) and if you can locate any for sale, they're not cheap. . .roughly $1.75 per round. If you think its hard finding ordinary .45LC on a shelf, try finding some .45LC+P! If you compare these "max" .45LC loads to the max available .44 magnum loads from the same makers, yes, the .45LC rounds are more powerful, but really only a little bit more.
Also, just because you "can" safely push .45LC up to much higher pressures, doesn't necessarily mean its the best way to go. For example, ordinary .45LC brass is simply not intended to be loaded to modern magnum like pressures, and .45LC brass is typically thinner than magnum brass, not holding up to repeated reloadings as well.
Bottom line is, even though 45LC "can" exceed .44 magnum if pushed to its limit, the cartridge was never really designed for that. I don't see anything wrong with "improving" .45LC a bit if you're reloading, have the desire and a safe platform to shoot it out of, but I think if you really feel the need to exceed .44 magnum ballistics from a handgun, you should probably skip the +P/overpressure loads and just upgrade to either a .454 (which is the tried and true purpose-built "magnumized" .45LC) or a .460SW instead.0 -
About the usefulness of the M6...
I have a Savage 24 .22lr/.410 and though it would be better if it had an auto-selector like nice Over/unders have, it is a really nice gun for rabbit and squirrel. I normally shoot them with the .22, but if I miss or they take off running, I have the .410.
I do like the fact that it stows the ammo which would be nice but if these don't shoot worth anything, I wonder if I could weld/machine something up at work to make the Savage O/U store ammo. Now, if I could only figure a way to make it auto-select...
Thanks for everything guys. I think that's all the questions for a while. [:)]0
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