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Private dealer sales

fyrfinder
I never see any comments about private dealer sales. I don't understand the concept of a "private dealer" to start with, a private dealer is miles away from a private party selling a weapon to someone that he knows or trusts.

I go to gun shows, I enjoy gun shows and have purchased a couple of nice pieces from private parties, but it makes me a little nuts sometimes (figuratively speaking only) when I see a table with 30 -40 handguns and a sign that says "private seller".

Those that I have observed have purchased the arms for resale, they are brand new in most cases and they are being offered to make a profit. They are firearms dealers and I don't see how they fit into any private party loophole ..... except that they serve some type of benefit to the Fed's to assure that the weapons will get out to the wrong people.

I saw something I liked in Seattle Washington some time back, where a person could go to a dealer and obtain a copy of the form to have filled out and then both the buyer and seller retained a copy.

Now I might be missing something, but besides inconvenienced, why would it not be fair to have a "private" sale run through a licensed dealer? The fed's get their background check run, the licensed dealer gets a fee, and there is a paper trail ... but only if the fed's would allow the paper to be maintained by the buyer and seller .. to prevent the government from obtaining information that could be used against a firearms owner.

What are your thoughts on this?

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Comments

42 comments

Date Votes
  • golferboy426
    As you describe, those would be unlawful sales. You cannot legally be a "private dealer" Anyone in the business of selling firearms must legally have an FFL.
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  • Don McManus
    quote:Originally posted by fyrfinder
    Now I might be missing something, but besides inconvenienced, why would it not be fair to have a "private" sale run through a licensed dealer? The fed's get their background check run, the licensed dealer gets a fee, and there is a paper trail ... but only if the fed's would allow the paper to be maintained by the buyer and seller .. to prevent the government from obtaining information that could be used against a firearms owner.

    What are your thoughts on this?

    [?]


    You have answered your own question. If all sales have to go through a background check and the creation of a paper trail, we are one generation of having a complete Federal database of all firearms.

    I ask you to consider how our Revolution may have turned out had King George had such documentation at his disposal in April of 1775.
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  • fyrfinder
    quote:Originally posted by golferboy426
    As you describe, those would be unlawful sales. You cannot legally be a "private dealer" Anyone in the business of selling firearms must legally have an FFL.


    Must not be unlawful because I see it on going at the local guns shows every event, and I have been told that the Fed's have visited and apparently they see nothing wrong as long as the person has a sign declaring that they are a "private" dealer or seller. Last show it was everyone that wasn't a licensed dealer declaring that they were a private seller.

    Now, in my humble opinion, the Fed's are either not doing their job, or there is a reason that they are not saying anything about the sales, and it could very possibly be that it is something like the fast and furious deal that they are purposely baiting straw buyer's.

    I personally wouldn't mind seeing that "loophole" closed and the intent of a private party sale be brought back to what it was intended to be.

    [:)]
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  • fyrfinder
    quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
    quote:Originally posted by fyrfinder
    Now I might be missing something, but besides inconvenienced, why would it not be fair to have a "private" sale run through a licensed dealer? The fed's get their background check run, the licensed dealer gets a fee, and there is a paper trail ... but only if the fed's would allow the paper to be maintained by the buyer and seller .. to prevent the government from obtaining information that could be used against a firearms owner.

    What are your thoughts on this?

    [?]


    You have answered your own question. If all sales have to go through a background check and the creation of a paper trail, we are one generation of having a complete Federal database of all firearms.

    I ask you to consider how our Revolution may have turned out had King George had such documentation at his disposal in April of 1775.

    Considering the type of weapons that the Revolutionist's had at there disposal, it was probably an oversight on the part of the British. The British arms were probably thought to be far superior to the farmer's hunting weapons, and the training that the British troops had would/should have given them a far greater advantage over the rag tag militant's.

    Our government is trying to cover that short coming by banning all "assault" weapons, in order to maintain the upper hand. Problem with the concept is they are not paying attention to the historical changes in warfare., Since Vietnam it has been hit and run with major use of boobytraps, and of course the government has drones and fighter's, but wiping out people's homes is not going to go over too well with the general population.

    If the government is concerned about real assault weapons, it might behoove them to keep better tabs on their own arsenal's. Over the years I have noticed that the government is providing quite a bit of heavy stuff to private hands. M16's have been "lost", hand grenades have shown up for sale in private hands, rocket launcher's that were used in Vietnam were being discarded in the desert until they learned that they could reload them.

    They even lost a few tanks it would appear, I know of one that was lost in a river during exercises, and one that was recovered from a wash with equipment that wasn't available at the time it was abandoned.

    [8D]
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  • golferboy426
    As of now in most states I can liquidate my large gun collection at a gun show without Federal paperwork. I am not "in the business". What you described seemed to be a guy buying new,recently manufactured guns for resale at a profit. Clearly that is prohibited. The guy would be charged specifically with "dealing in firearms without a license" All this can be found on the ATF web site
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  • fyrfinder
    quote:Originally posted by golferboy426
    As of now in most states I can liquidate my large gun collection at a gun show without Federal paperwork. I am not "in the business". What you described seemed to be a guy buying new,recently manufactured guns for resale at a profit. Clearly that is prohibited. The guy would be charged specifically with "dealing in firearms without a license" All this can be found on the ATF web site


    Agreed, that is what is appears to me to be what is happening. I know if I offered any or all of what I have on a gun show table, it sure would look a lot different than what I am observing on some of these guy's tables. The majority of the tables are what my stuff would look like, a couple of this, a couple of that, might be one in the box weapon that has been in the box for several years and never found a fondness with me. Very few of what I have could be mistaken for something bought retail and turned over for profit.

    Thinking about it, I don't think I ever sold anything at a profit ... most of what I did pass on I was talked out of and let it go for what I had in it or less. Flaw in my character I guess. [8D]
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  • babun
    quote:Originally posted by golferboy426
    As you describe, those would be unlawful sales. You cannot legally be a "private dealer" Anyone in the business of selling firearms must legally have an FFL.


    In 1775, to LAWFULLY drink tea, you had to pay King George a tax.
    In 1860, to LAWFULLY own land, you had be be a white man.
    In 1930, no one LAWFULLY could drink alcohol.
    In 1945, at age 17 you could die in the army, but you can't LAWFULLY vote for your president.
    In 2013, millions of Americans can NOT LAWFULLY own their grandfathers .22lr rifle because it holds 8 rounds.

    STICK YOUR LEGAL LAWS WHERE THE SUN DON'T SHINE.
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  • golferboy426
    quote:In 2013, millions of Americans can NOT LAWFULLY own their grandfathers .22lr rifle because it holds 8 rounds.

    That is a false statement even with the new New York law.

    I don't believe that is true anywhere in the USA
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  • oledoc2u
    22 might be right but you understand what he is saying. Hopefully what Barry is doing today will be undone in 3 yrs and 11 months.
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  • fyrfinder
    In three years and eleven months we may not be able to recognize this country.

    I read somewhere this morning that the president can raise the debt ceiling without senate or congressional approval in the event of an "insurgence" or "civil disobedience" Now, that could explain quite a bit about the agenda to whip the population into a frenzy.

    I still have strong feelings that this "change" that the administration is pushing has much to do with anointing Obama as King and dictator of America. For the good of the public and their safety of course.

    [:p]
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  • torosapo
    I was a private dealer for a couple years. I sold my personal guns along with ammo and other gun related items I picked up for resale. Why should I have been forced to pay someone else so I could sell my guns. The states I sold in did not require me to do background checks. I sold in 6 different states, and no I didn't break any state or federal laws.
    I don't belive the nics system is effective in stopping any crime, so why should take part in it if I don't have to.
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  • golferboy426
    quote:and no I didn't break any state or federal laws

    you are wrong. If you sold any gun outside of your state without a background check you broke Federal law. You can currently sell your personal collection without being a dealer but you can't sell across State lines. In the OP it was pretty clear the person was selling brand new guns current guns
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  • torosapo
    Well I checked with both the states I was selling in and with the feds. As long as I sold to residents of the state I was in or a resident of the state I was in, No I was not breaking any laws.

    As far as anyone selling new guns without an ffl, more power to them.
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  • BGHillbilly
    I'm just curious how a person can get NIB guns without a license and offer them for sale at a competitive price. Somebody somewhere has a license and is purchaseing them from a distributor and transfering them to the private seller.
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  • golferboy426
    quote:Well I checked with both the states I was selling in and with the feds. As long as I sold to residents of the state I was in or a resident of the state I was in, No I was not breaking any laws.

    I just loved debating with ignorant lying people

    see the link below a summary of Federal laws. and the section I pasted. My red highlights

    http://www.fedcoplaw.com/html/federal_firearms_laws.html

    13. Transferring Personal Firearms (sell, give, loan)

    a. A resident of a State may transfer a firearm to a resident of the same State.

    1) But may not transfer a Hand Gun to a person under 18 years of age, A? 922 (x)(1), 1 year or 10 years; see exceptions, A? 922 (x)(3).

    b. A resident of a State may not transfer a firearm to a resident of another State, A? 922 (a)(5), 5 years, but ...

    1) May transfer a firearm to a non-resident via a Will or intestate succession (no Will but State law describes division of estate), A? 922 (a)(5)(A). May loan or rent a firearm to a non-resident for temporary lawful sporting purposes, A? 922 (a)(5)(B). May deliver a firearm to a non-resident by first delivering the firearm to an FFL in the recipient?_Ts State, the transfer would then take place at the FFL?_Ts premises, A? 922 (a)(1)(A).



    B. FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSEE (FFL) - Manufacturer, Importer, Wholesaler, Retailer, Pawnbroker, Gunsmith, Collector of Curios & Relics, A? 922 (a)(9-13, 21-22)

    1. Firearms Business

    a. Before engaging in the business of importing, manufacturing or dealing in firearms, a person must obtain a license from the ATF, A? 922 (a)(1)(A). Willful violation, 5 years.
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  • torosapo
    Well I was not in the business of selling guns. I was selling off personal property that i had collected. Prior to going to another state I made calls to the state I was going to and also to the BATFE telling them exactly what I was planning to do. I rarely had more than 4 or 5 guns for sale at a time. At one time I owned over 50 firearms now I own 1. I sold more knives, ammo and other gun related stuff than guns.


    The OP was about non ffl dealers not required to do background checks. Background checks do not prevent any crime nor do they solve any. A paper trail is just that and stops at the last legal transfer. It does not start a trail of any illegal transfers due to no paper.


    If we want to be "fair", why not just impose a $200 tax and register all guns. I mean we do it to full autos so why not to everyone.


    Personally I would rather see the NICS system done away with. Roll back gun laws 200 years, to when a man could own whatever he could afford.
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  • golferboy426
    torosapo you are wrong again


    quote:The OP was about non ffl dealers not required to do background checks

    Here is the the key part of the OP

    quote:Those that I have observed have purchased the arms for resale, they are brand new in most cases and they are being offered to make a profit. They are firearms dealers and I don't see how they fit into any private party loophole
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  • machine gun moran
    The 'Private Sellers' can be divided fairly easily into a couple of types. I've seen people at gun shows with 'Private Sales' signs on their tables, who were obviously disposing of private collections. They are almost always used guns, and often, they are vintage. I saw one such seller who had a fairly large number of S&W revolvers that were new guns in boxes, but all had been purchased by a recently-deceased relative, between about 1950 and 1975 (there were gems, such as .38 Special Outdoorsman's and Model 1950 Army's). These are not the type of 'private sellers' that the ATF is usually interested in addressing.

    The other type of 'Private Seller', is actually a commercial but unlicensed dealer who is trying to fly under the radar. These guys will cover a table with Hi-Points and various rubber-framed pistols that were made yesterday, and which were somehow obtained at wholesale prices. It's the mass and unrecorded sales of those, that attracts the Fed's attention.
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  • golferboy426
    quote:The 'Private Sellers' can be divided fairly easily into a couple of types. I've seen people at gun shows with 'Private Sales' signs on their tables, who were obviously disposing of private collections. They are almost always used guns, and often, they are vintage.

    nothing illegal about that in most States. Here in CT though, since it's at a show, Nics check is required with paperwork if a handgun
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  • casper1947
    on ATF-f-5310-12 application form for FFl
    18a. Do You Intend To Sell Firearms Only at Gun Shows?
    Yes (If yes, do not submit application)

    http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5310-12.pdf
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  • golferboy426
    quote:on ATF-f-5310-12 application form for FFl
    18a. Do You Intend To Sell Firearms Only at Gun Shows?
    Yes (If yes, do not submit application)

    your point???

    That is there because if you do not have a business premises that can be inspected and have regular hours you do not get a license
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  • casper1947
    My point is that is the dreaded "GUN SHOW LOOP HOLE".
    Your business premises can be your home. box 17 type can be single family dwelling.
    as for hours of business how about 1~3 pm Saturday?
    ATF can inspect you business if it is your home.
    As a C&R holder i know they can inspect my home or request me to present them at there office. Weapons as well as bound record book.
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  • golferboy426
    quote:My point is that is the dreaded "GUN SHOW LOOP HOLE".
    Your business premises can be your home. box 17 type can be single family dwelling.
    as for hours of business how about 1~3 pm Saturday?
    ATF can inspect you business if it is your home.
    As a C&R holder i know they can inspect my home or request me to present them at there office. Weapons as well as bound record book.


    The key word is only at gunshows. You can have an FFL in your home, we do with minimal hours , ours are M-th 6-8pm

    AS for the gun show loophole. You probably know but It reads like you don't.

    The loophole which I reject by the way, is that 2 non dealers can meet at a gunshow and in most staes complete a sale with no records required. BTW here in CT that would be illegal
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  • casper1947
    quote:Originally posted by golferboy426
    quote:My point is that is the dreaded "GUN SHOW LOOP HOLE".
    Your business premises can be your home. box 17 type can be single family dwelling.
    as for hours of business how about 1~3 pm Saturday?
    ATF can inspect you business if it is your home.
    As a C&R holder i know they can inspect my home or request me to present them at there office. Weapons as well as bound record book.


    The key word is only at gunshows. You can have an FFL in your home, we do with minimal hours , ours are M-th 6-8pm

    AS for the gun show loophole. You probably know but It reads like you don't.

    The loophole which I reject by the way, is that 2 non dealers can meet at a gunshow and in most staes complete a sale with no records required. BTW here in CT that would be illegal



    The gun show loop hole I referred to was the ATF NOT requiring an FFL to sell firearms at a gun show.
    It had nothing to do with addresses or hours.
    Actually I think this is a transfer of private property. In some States private property is still private property.
    I think the ATF FFL requirements don't apply due to interstate commerce. State and local laws still apply.
    As long as there is an FFL between the private dealer and the manufacturer.
    True it would greatly hamper the traceability of a firearm.
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  • golferboy426
    quote:ATF NOT requiring an FFL to sell firearms at a gun show

    An FFL is not required to sell your personal property at a gunshow.

    However it would be against Federal law for the seller to sell at a gun show not in his State of residence and against the law to for the seller to sell to to a buyer whose residence is not the same as the seller
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  • casper1947
    quote:Originally posted by golferboy426
    quote:ATF NOT requiring an FFL to sell firearms at a gun show

    An FFL is not required to sell your personal property at a gunshow.

    However it would be against Federal law for the seller to sell at a gun show not in his State of residence and against the law to for the seller to sell to to a buyer whose residence is not the same as the seller

    I agree completely.
    But it bothers me that I cannot verify this quickly thru the ATF web site. It does seem consistent with interstate commerce, as currently applied.
    You are referring to non FFL's about crossing state lines, correct?
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  • golferboy426
    actually an ffl can sell at a gunshow out of their own state but they may not complete the sale there, Legally it would have to be shipped or a transfer done to an FFL in that State who could then transfer to the buyer
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  • casper1947
    I did a little checking and at least one of the large operations is protecting itself.
    Premier Gun Shows, LLC
    June 20, 2011
    SHOW RULES
    In keeping with the spirit, as well as the intent, of all applicable gun laws, it is necessary that all
    dealers / vendors, who sell firearms for a portion, or all, of their livelihood must posses a federal
    firearms license.

    Persons who sell guns from their personal collection, and who do not derive their livelihood from
    the sale of firearms nor make a profit on sales, are not required to have a FFL.
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  • golferboy426
    quote: nor make a profit on sales

    That's an odd clause as when someone sells a personal collection bought over time almost every gun will be sold at a profit
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  • casper1947
    quote:Originally posted by golferboy426
    quote: nor make a profit on sales

    That's an odd clause as when someone sells a personal collection bought over time almost every gun will be sold at a profit


    I know, that struck me as odd also. But no more than box 18 on the FFL application:
    18. Do You Intend To Make a Profit from Your Business?
    Yes No (If no, do not submit application)

    ATF concerned with profitability of a business?

    But with current prices and availability of weapons if I offered any at what i paid for them i am sure i would be checked out by authorities. We are well past the days of even the $80 High-Point.
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