carbine problem II
there is one more possibility if you can't find the problem and it seems to function properly. It could be the shooter, if held the wrong way the shooter could be bump firing the weapon. If you dont know what that is go on utube and type "bump fire"
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BowGunHunter,
Im most cases, weapons that fire from a closed bolt, will rarily fire, if the hammer rides the bolt closed. There is simply not enough enertia to do so, unless the firing pin is frozen up, in the far forward posistion. Thus, acting like an open bolt, with a fixed firing pin.
That said, because your carbine is not doing this all the time, and because it has no actual "disconnector", but a spring loaded trigger sear arrangement that automatically disconnects, I would check that sear spring. If it is weak, it could function part of the time, and malfunction part of the time, thus giving you the symptoms you are seeing.
Best
EDIT 1
quote:If the pin was broken in two and stuck you could have it set the round off in the chamber but in gereral having the pin set the round off would be rare in a well maintained rifle.
Even if the hammer is not disconnecting and is riding the bolt into battery, it is very unlikely there is enough enertia to set it off. That is unless the firing pin is stuck forward, acting like an open bolt gun, where the enertia from the mass of the bolt driving a now fixed firing pin, would do it. Winchester had a problem, similar to this with the Model 100.
Best0 -
The carbine was converted to full auto and the way the rifle functions when the sear was disconnected was to follow the bolt forward until you release the trigger. The same thing is happening here only the sear is not catching the hammer and letting the rifle repeat. If the wear becomes excessive the rifle will empty the magazine just like a machine gun. The M1 Garand will do the same thing I have seen it. The double was not a bump fire. You could reproduce the defective sear or hammer by taking the rifle out of the wood and manually function the action and see the hammer follow the bolt forward with out the trigger pulled.
Emmett
Added:
The firing pin in the carbine bolt has a tail that makes contact with a machined area of the receiver that pulls the pin back every time the bolt goes forward. If the pin was broken in two and stuck you could have it set the round off in the chamber but in gereral having the pin set the round off would be rare in a well maintained rifle.0 -
I don't get it but my experience had these rifles with 59-60 years less wear. They incorporated specific features to prevent slam fire.
The cam on a bridge under the bolt engages the tang on the firing pin keeping it rearward till the bolt is rotated into battery. This assumes the firing pin is unmodified & still in one piece.
Assuming these features are still there, the firing pin cannot slam fire even if the hammer follows the bolt forward. The hammer has to trip after the bolt has closed due to faulty disconnector hooks on the Garand and sear/spring on the carbine.
With faulty parts you might get an occasional doubling but not a reliable machinegun.
With either gun out of the wood, keep the trigger rearward and slam the slide forward a number of times. You may see the hammer trip.0 -
BTW if your rifle is double firing, then I'd get it fixed immediately. What you have there is considered a machine gun (even though it probably won't empty a clip). If you keep shooting it the way it is you can either get in trouble with a LEO or a malfunction that will damage your firearm and/or you.
IMHO0 -
quote:Originally posted by ltssales
BTW if your rifle is double firing, then I'd get it fixed immediately. What you have there is considered a machine gun (even though it probably won't empty a clip). If you keep shooting it the way it is you can either get in trouble with a LEO or a malfunction that will damage your firearm and/or you.
IMHO
A malfunctioning semi-auto that doubled -- or even (in a very rare situation) emptied a whole magazine -- is not considered a machine gun.
Violating the law requires intent. A firearm breaking, and functioning momentarily firing multiple rounds after one pull of the trigger, did not involve any intent to create a machine gun.
(Now if one had a firearm that broke -- say something like a severely stuck firing pin and it would consistently "slam fire" -- and one intentionally ignored the malfunction, and kept using it, one might be in a position where one could face prosecution. But being at the range, experiencing a failure in a semi-auto that resulted in multiple rounds being fired isn't grounds for prosecution.)0 -
quote:Originally posted by competentone
quote:Originally posted by ltssales
BTW if your rifle is double firing, then I'd get it fixed immediately. What you have there is considered a machine gun (even though it probably won't empty a clip). If you keep shooting it the way it is you can either get in trouble with a LEO or a malfunction that will damage your firearm and/or you.
IMHO
A malfunctioning semi-auto that doubled -- or even (in a very rare situation) emptied a whole magazine -- is not considered a machine gun.
Violating the law requires intent. A firearm breaking, and functioning momentarily firing multiple rounds after one pull of the trigger, did not involve any intent to create a machine gun.
(Now if one had a firearm that broke -- say something like a severely stuck firing pin and it would consistently "slam fire" -- and one intentionally ignored the malfunction, and kept using it, one might be in a position where one could face prosecution. But being at the range, experiencing a failure in a semi-auto that resulted in multiple rounds being fired isn't grounds for prosecution.)
If you are at a range, and a ATF agent, or stuck on themselves, new LEO is around, you will be charged. There are cases of this happening. It had, or has nothing to do with intent. It has to do with the POSSESION of a firearm that went bang more than once, with a single pull of the trigger. If you try to flirt with the BATFE laws, and try to explain THEIR rules to them, I am sure the lawyer's you have to hire, will love your bank accounts.
Best0 -
quote:Originally posted by competentone
A malfunctioning semi-auto that doubled -- or even (in a very rare situation) emptied a whole magazine -- is not considered a machine gun.
Violating the law requires intent. A firearm breaking, and functioning momentarily firing multiple rounds after one pull of the trigger, did not involve any intent to create a machine gun.
(Now if one had a firearm that broke -- say something like a severely stuck firing pin and it would consistently "slam fire" -- and one intentionally ignored the malfunction, and kept using it, one might be in a position where one could face prosecution. But being at the range, experiencing a failure in a semi-auto that resulted in multiple rounds being fired isn't grounds for prosecution.)
As clarification here, this scenario, where a malfunctioning gun causes more than one shot to be fired with a single trigger pull, isn't uncommon. Many gun designs (eg AR-15s, 1911 pistols, etc) can "double" or even go full auto with a single trigger pull if the sear/trigger group gets worn, or if the firing pin gets stuck in its channel, etc.
I actually have an Iver Johnson clone of a Walther TP22 that did this to me. It scared the crap out of me one time at the range firing two shots with one pull of the trigger totally out of the blue. I don't know exactly what was wrong, but I assume it was a stuck firing pin or such, because after I stripped it down and cleaned it, the problem went away.
Anway, the BATFE's policy is that a mechanical defect in a gun that causes multiple shots per pull of the trigger is NOT an illegal machine gun. The problem is that the policy isn't the law. . .and as far as I can tell, the law doesn't exempt malfunctioning guns. See here:
quote:
National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. ? 5845(b), defines the term "machinegun" as:
. any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
The problem is, even though the BATFE "shouldn't" be prosecuting people over defective guns, that doesn't mean that they or local/State police won't ever try to prosecute anyway. There was a pretty well publicized case a few years ago where the defendant, a Mr. David Olofson of Wisconsin was charged with illegal transfer of a machine gun, and sentenced to 2.5 years jail time over an AR-15 rifle that he claimed was defective with a worn disconnector.
The case is complicated, and I don't know all the facts (nor will attempt to present them here), but allegations surrounding this case included a known manufacturer defect in the gun, and misconduct by the BATFE in testing the weapon in question.
But the point is, even if they can't make their case in a court of law, just being criminally charged over something like this would be a major ordeal, involving lawyers, significant cash outlay for defense, and emotional distress.0 -
Back to the problemo of going full-auto...
http://www.90thidpg.us/Reference/Manuals/TM9-1276_1947.pdf
Refer to page #13-(8) "Carbines with automatic tendencies".
There may be more? I didn't check.
45er0 -
I witnessed a recent instance of an AR doubling at our range.
A JP adjustable trigger had been installed & set for 3.5# let off.
Disconnector engagement was the culprit. As that engagement isn't adjustable it was corrected by removing some disconnector metal.
I don't recall if the disconnector was original to the gun or came with the trigger kit. In any event it was an easy fix.0 -
The DA is a member of our club and gave some advice to one of the members when his pistol double fired. He told him basically that if he was the Prosecutor you would get the first malfunction free with no liability. You could even get away with trying it again to confirm what you experienced. If it does happen again, even once, immediately disassemble the firearm to show intent to detect and correct the malfunction and then put the gun away until a smith can fix it. Continuing to fire it for the fun of it or letting others shoot your new machinepistol when you have confirmed it is multifiring is where a prosecutor would show intent added on top of possession, which, while not mandatory to his case, really helps seal a conviction. He's a good guy and a real gun nut like the rest of us so we figure it is pretty good advice on how to proceed when you SUSPECT (you didn't know for sure [;)]) you heard a multiple shot string go off. We value his legal opinions. [:)] He says the law is not as black and white as some barracks lawyers think. He says as a prosecutor he would believe you when you said that you weren't sure the first time so you fired again to confirm there was a malfunction, after all, there is no reason to incur repair expenses if there was no real malfunction. But, he wouldn't be BSed by someone who stays and continues to fire full auto after that. So, take the advice and the very moment you have confirmed a full auto operation, disassemble that baby and put it away. You never can be quite sure who is standing nearby. [:D] 0 -
andrew is making a very valid point. In general, there are two parts to any criminal act. Those are actus rea (you did the thing) and mens rea (you intended to do the thing)
It is against the law to lie on the grass at the park. While walking on the sidewalk, you stepped on a patch of ice, and fell onto the lawn. While you did the act (On yer back, on the grass) you did not INTEND to be there- and got up as soon as you could. No mens rea.
The actions he describes at the range would be needed to show -AT YOUR DEFENSE- the lack of intent to break the law.0
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