Safe carry question, continued.
I'm re-opening this thread just because I have something to add.
The Kel-tec 3at has a "double action only" type trigger. The hammer rests in a down position, and CANNOT be cocked except by pulling the trigger. The gun also has an "inertia" type tapered hammer so that even dropping it "should" not impart enough energy to the firing pin to set off a round.
In practice, this gun functions much like a double-action only revolver. Pretty much *EVERYONE* carries those with six rounds in the cylinder, and that's widely regarded as safe and standard operating procedure. Since the only way the gun can go off is with a long relatively heavy and deliberately trigger pull, there is no need for an external safety nor an empty chamber.
As to "who carries with an empty chamber", that practice has been called "Israeli carry", after the historical SOP in the Israeli military to carry all weapons with empty chambers.
But the reason they did that, was because the original Israeli "army" was a resistance force made up of barely trained European immigrants, using whatever guns they could buy, steal, or build themselves (like homemade Sten guns). With a wide variety of weapons in the hands of novice soldiers, each with different action types, and safety mechanisms, the only way the army could ensure uniform safety discipline for everyone was to have everyone carry with an empty chamber.
In practice, the Israeli military today *DOES NOT* carry its guns with empty chambers as SOP in most situations. They might do that in "high alert" areas, but typically for active duty expecting trouble, they'll carry "cocked and locked", like any other military. If they're in "safe" areas, SOP is chamber empty magazine OUT OF GUN.
Israeli police typically use SA/DA autos and carry hammer down. A few units use Glocks, in which case, they'll carry like everyone else with the gun holstered and a loaded round in the chamber.
Anyway, some people do like to carry their autos with empty chambers for increased safety, but I don't think this is good practice with any modern high quality gun. I've never liked the idea of having to rack a slide in an imminent life or death emergency. You simply may not have the time or free hand available to do it, and doing it wrongly (ie under stress) can jam some guns. If you're not comfortable with the conventional safety features of a conventional duty/service type gun, you might question your suitability in carrying a concealed weapon to begin with.
On the other hand, if the only gun you have available to you is a low quality one that isn't "drop safe", then in that particular case it would make sense to keep the chamber empty until you needed to fire it. Its still a better idea to get a higher quality gun, if you are able to do so.
The Kel-tec 3at has a "double action only" type trigger. The hammer rests in a down position, and CANNOT be cocked except by pulling the trigger. The gun also has an "inertia" type tapered hammer so that even dropping it "should" not impart enough energy to the firing pin to set off a round.
In practice, this gun functions much like a double-action only revolver. Pretty much *EVERYONE* carries those with six rounds in the cylinder, and that's widely regarded as safe and standard operating procedure. Since the only way the gun can go off is with a long relatively heavy and deliberately trigger pull, there is no need for an external safety nor an empty chamber.
As to "who carries with an empty chamber", that practice has been called "Israeli carry", after the historical SOP in the Israeli military to carry all weapons with empty chambers.
But the reason they did that, was because the original Israeli "army" was a resistance force made up of barely trained European immigrants, using whatever guns they could buy, steal, or build themselves (like homemade Sten guns). With a wide variety of weapons in the hands of novice soldiers, each with different action types, and safety mechanisms, the only way the army could ensure uniform safety discipline for everyone was to have everyone carry with an empty chamber.
In practice, the Israeli military today *DOES NOT* carry its guns with empty chambers as SOP in most situations. They might do that in "high alert" areas, but typically for active duty expecting trouble, they'll carry "cocked and locked", like any other military. If they're in "safe" areas, SOP is chamber empty magazine OUT OF GUN.
Israeli police typically use SA/DA autos and carry hammer down. A few units use Glocks, in which case, they'll carry like everyone else with the gun holstered and a loaded round in the chamber.
Anyway, some people do like to carry their autos with empty chambers for increased safety, but I don't think this is good practice with any modern high quality gun. I've never liked the idea of having to rack a slide in an imminent life or death emergency. You simply may not have the time or free hand available to do it, and doing it wrongly (ie under stress) can jam some guns. If you're not comfortable with the conventional safety features of a conventional duty/service type gun, you might question your suitability in carrying a concealed weapon to begin with.
On the other hand, if the only gun you have available to you is a low quality one that isn't "drop safe", then in that particular case it would make sense to keep the chamber empty until you needed to fire it. Its still a better idea to get a higher quality gun, if you are able to do so.
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I carry a Ruger P95. I like it because I can have a round in the chamber and the hammer down and it is as safe as they get. Plus with the decocker/safety pushed down the trigger is disengaged.
This makes me feel better if anyone were to ever get a hand on the gun they could not just pull the trigger and fire it. For me part of drawing the gun deals with pushing that decocker/safety into the ready postion. Then I have that long heavy DA trigger for the first shot, then it is light and short.
I have no worries of the gun itself.0 -
Thanks for continuing my thread, I feel better now knowing more about how the internals work on this Kel-Tec. I've carried all types of full sized auto's cocked and locked (holstered) and various revolvers 40+ yrs but never had any experience with a small pocket auto which had no external safety or hammer like this Kel-Tec P-3AT and THAT is what had me "leery" of pocket carry. Like said, I like the weight factor (11 oz. loaded), pocket size, flatness and material its made of so its now a keeper instead of something to pass on. Thanks again for the good info [;)] 0 -
I'm not familiar with your pistol but as you mentioned it's a 'pocket carry. One thing I always feel safer with them is to have a 'pocket holster'. It's one more thing to go into that pocket, but the control you keep with it is much better than having it loose and something getting into that trigger. You might have already known that but just thought I'd add. If you do have to carry a bare gun in a pocket, nothing else goes in there. 0 -
I agree with SW; IMO carry guns should ALWAYS be carried in a proper fitting holster; be it a shoulder or chest-carry rig, an exposed belt, a paddle, an inside-the-pants- or inside-the-pocket set up. There are tons of makers who craft holsters in so many different materials I can't count them all, and there is no excuse for not spending a few extra bucks for one of these devices to properly carry your lifesaving tool.
"Mexican carry", a term for the bare gun tucked inside the waistband, or having a gun loose in a pocket, is just asking for trouble. Dropping out of the trousers is the least of the worries, grabbing the gun as it slips and punishing the groin while walking down the sidewalk WILL make the local papers and maybe get a Darwin award. Loose in the pocket invites coins and keys getting mixed up in the trigger guard that can also be a receipe for a negligent discharge into the lap. I'll pass on those.
I also agree with BTS that carrying an auto with one in the chamber and a loaded magazine is the way to go. The FIRST thing that goes when humans are startled and nature kicks in is fine motor control, and racking a slide when faced with a dynamic situation is not easy no matter how many times it's practiced in the living room. In addition, when an assailant is on you, or almost on you, you're most likely going to be fending off the assault with one of your hands (I'll say left hand for a righty) as you draw; how is the gun going to be charged to defend your life now?
I always stress to folks that they should be very, very familiar with their carry gun of choice, they should be comfortable with the operation under calm as well as trying situations, and also be mindful about the mode they choose for carry. It is a serious choice to CCW, and it does take thought and practice to do it safely so that you and yours are a-ok. I'm glad to see people asking/posting these things here on GB, as it tells me that people are trying to take things seriously and are seeking advice from a pool of folks who are usually spot on (although we all know internet advice can sometimes be a load of hooey). In this case it's not.0 -
Adding a bit, and responding to above:
From experience, the biggest drawback of the Kel-Tec is that a lot of them are simply unreliable, and the gun can take quite a bit of break-in time before they cycle right. Both a rubber grip sleeve and the magazine pinky extension help a lot to hang onto this thing when shooting.
Personally, I would never EVER carry this gun with an empty chamber. This particular pistol has both a really stiff slide AND very little surface area to grap onto to rack it, making it one of the harder guns out there to charge.
If your hands are wet, sweaty (ie you're nervous!), bloody, etc, it simply may not be physically impossible to charge the gun under stress, even if you have the few extra seconds necessary to attempt that. The slick design also means its going to be next to impossible to charge this gun with one hand, even under the best circumstances.
YES, if you are going to carry a gun in your pocket ALWAYS carry it in a pocket holster.
(That's actually the law in the State of GA, by the way, all CCWs must be carried in a "holster", though the holster can be a baggie, if you like). EDIT: This is not true; it appears this rule has been revoked, though guns carried OPENLY must be holstered. . .sorry about the error! P
erfectly adequate ones, like the Uncle Mikes, can be had for under $20, and there is really no excuse for not using one.
The pocket holster does multiple things for you (in descending order of importance):
-It covers the trigger guard, helping to reduce the chance that anything other than your trigger finger pulls on the trigger.
Personally, if I'm carrying in a pocket, I never put anything ELSE into that pocket, but some people (bizarrely) will. The last thing you want is some key or such poking your trigger when you bend over!
-It helps keep lint and other crap from getting in your gun, potentially jamming it, or even worse, partly obstructing the barrel.
-It maintains a proper orientation of the gun within your pocket so you can actually draw it consistently without having to "fish around", which is not only slow, but also potentially unsafe.
-It breaks up the outline of the gun and aids in concealment.
-Depending on the holster, and pocket, it may help prevent the gun from falling out of your pocket.
Edit: In terms of this gun vs that one, I own a Kel Tec 3At, and bluntly, I don't much care for it. Its not 100% reliable (and neither have others I've seen/tried), I find the trigger hard to pull (my hand is just too big for the gun, and I get some "pinching" at the end of the pull if I don't use the very tip of my finger), the sights are next to impossible to see, the slide is hard to rack, and to top it off the .380 round itself is marginal for defense.
For me this gun has one and only one "saving" feature, which is why I haven't gotten rid of it; its so small and light you can literally carry it anywhere, even in circumstances you can't carry a "real" gun. Its a lot better than "no gun".
I personally prefer an alloy frame .38 snubnose. You give up 1-2 shots capacity compared to a .380 and there is quite a bit more bulk/weight in pocket carry, but the significantly greater power with .38+P ammo, reliability, accuracy, improved ergonomics, and simpler manual of arms (if it doesnt go off, pull trigger again) are worth it to me.
Edit #2: Responding to below. What if your non-dominant (or dominant!) hand is injured, restrained/unavailable (ie you've been hit and you're lying on it, or your assailant has grabbed it, etc), or holding something you can't/shouldn't let go of (like your keys or a flashlight)? Have you tried working the slide on your Kel-Tec with hands numbed by cold weather or bulky gloves on? How about with wet or greasy hands (ie you're outside, and its raining)?
Point is even if you can smoothly draw the gun and rack the slide quickly and easily in practice, you can't assume everything will be in your favor in a "pinch".
If you found a pocket holster to be too bulky or uncomfortable, you might simply consider a different one. Seriously, there is a variety of them out there and the better ones are barely bigger than the gun itself. The good ones have rough outside surfaces to "glue" them in your pocket, and with a gun in place look sort of "square" in your pocket, like a wallet or maybe a cell phone. I have a Galco (see below), and it works great. I think I paid $30 for it on sale:
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Thanks for reopening the thread. I would like to take another tack...in a recent edition of a gun mag (I can't remember if it was Handgunner or Handguns...it is buried in my stack somewhere) there is a great article on just this issue....CC with chamber unloaded. I found it very interesting as I have always carried that way with all my weapons. The author practices drawing and firing in one motion which, of course, requires two hands....one for the weapon and one for the slide to chamber a round. With practice he can do it in under two seconds. I have been practicing at the range and I can do it in around three sec tops with my little Ruger .380. I also carry it in my right pants pocket with the muzzle down in the pocket change area of the pocket. I tried to use a pocket holster but found it cumbersome and it made an outline in my pocket. I carry a spare mag in the other pocket and I inspect and clean (if necessary) any lint or such in or around the pistol after every carry. I know one can make the argument that those three seconds could be life or death but I feel a bit safer with the way I carry even when I use my side holster for my 1911 and Jackass for my little Glock 36. Anyway, just my opinion. 0 -
I have observed over years of competition that the likliest time for a malfunction is when loading or reloading the autopistol.
You can "spoon feed" the first one into place if nobody is shooting at you, and it will probably shoot the rest ok.
A pistol starting with a round in the chamber is liklier to fire that round and feed the next than you are to get one chambered by hurredly racking the slide by hand.
As it happened, I was shooting IDPA with an Israeli last night.
He was starting with a round chambered.
I neglected to ask if that were the current policy in Israel or if he had been influenced by American practice.0 -
quote:Originally posted by gary wray
Thanks for reopening the thread. I would like to take another tack...in a recent edition of a gun mag (I can't remember if it was Handgunner or Handguns...it is buried in my stack somewhere) there is a great article on just this issue....CC with chamber unloaded. I found it very interesting as I have always carried that way with all my weapons. The author practices drawing and firing in one motion which, of course, requires two hands....one for the weapon and one for the slide to chamber a round. With practice he can do it in under two seconds. I have been practicing at the range and I can do it in around three sec tops with my little Ruger .380. I also carry it in my right pants pocket with the muzzle down in the pocket change area of the pocket. I tried to use a pocket holster but found it cumbersome and it made an outline in my pocket. I carry a spare mag in the other pocket and I inspect and clean (if necessary) any lint or such in or around the pistol after every carry. I know one can make the argument that those three seconds could be life or death but I feel a bit safer with the way I carry even when I use my side holster for my 1911 and Jackass for my little Glock 36. Anyway, just my opinion.
You can be dead in 3 seconds. And try it after the bad guy has already shot you in the other arm, or stuck a knife in it, or just has hold of your other arm, or you are wrestling on the ground, etc, etc, etc. Range shooting and shooting for your life are two very different things.0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
That's actually the law in the State of GA, by the way, all CCWs must be carried in a "holster", though the holster can be a baggie, if you like). .
THAT is helpful, I live in Ga. and was'nt aware of the pocket holster requirement or if I did I had forgotten/over-looked it. [;)]0 -
In reply to beantown,s post, I have carried a Kel-Tec P-32 then the P-3AT in a rear pocket holster since they first came out.
Before carrying them, I put 50rds. of lead ball through them. It polishes the feed ramp. Them I tried the HP carry ammo for another 50. After they fed them I felt safe carrying them.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Junkballer
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
That's actually the law in the State of GA, by the way, all CCWs must be carried in a "holster", though the holster can be a baggie, if you like). .
THAT is helpful, I live in Ga. and was'nt aware of the pocket holster requirement or if I did I had forgotten/over-looked it. [;)]
Well, I just checked, and I'm wrong on that. Apparently this was once the case, but the law has since changed, and its not true anymore.
This is probably the bill that did it:
http://www1.legis.ga.gov/legis/2009_10/fulltext/sb9.htm
quote:http://www.georgiacarry.org/cms/georgias-carry-laws-explained/frequently-asked-questions/
Method of Carry
Q: Do I need to carry my firearm concealed or may I carry openly?
A: Under the law, a Georgia Weapons License holder may carry a weapon or longgun openly or concealed in any location that is not off limits. However, should you choose to openly carry a handgun, please be aware of the image you present to the public while doing so. They vote.
Q: Do I have to use a holster?
A: No
Apparently, the need for a holster is only if you choose to carry your gun OPENLY:
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2011/may/16/gun-carry-confusion/0
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