C&R eligible ?????
Just came across this M1 carbine and I am quite sure it is NOT eligible due to the stock and scope base.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=313988732
Thanks Spider, I sent the seller a email saying they might want to be careful of that as it was not C&R
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=313988732
Thanks Spider, I sent the seller a email saying they might want to be careful of that as it was not C&R
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It is definitely NOT C&R eligible as it is not in its original configuration. 0 -
The scope base is a "no drill" type so I think that alone is not an issue. The stock is an issue because it is so different from the original, but it can be changed out too. What can't be changed and kills collectibility more than the add ons is the reblue.
Does rebluing affect "original configuration"?0 -
quote:Originally posted by dfletcher
The scope base is a "no drill" type so I think that alone is not an issue. The stock is an issue because it is so different from the original, but it can be changed out too. What can't be changed and kills collectibility more than the add ons is the reblue.
Does rebluing affect "original configuration"?
Yes, it can be changed back to C&R status but ATF would never accept it the way it is as a collector's item. They could care less about a reblue.0 -
ATF has specifically said that adding a scope to a C&R is OK, even if not "correct" for "original configuration". (Some M1 carbines were issued with "scopes". Same for refinishing.
But, I believe that a sporter stock is a change too far.
Neal
EDIT: My understanding of ATF regulations is that a C&R license only permits the transfer of a C&R firearm to a C&R licensee without the need to have the transfer go through a dealer. Nothing in the regulations restricts the alteration of a C&R firearm while in the possession of the C&R licensee, & there is no requirement to make any change in the licensee's bound book until he disposes of the firearm. If an alteration to a firearm removes it from the C&R category, it can only be transferred to a dealer in any state or to a nonlicensee in the transferor's own state (state & local law permitting).0 -
Dang....I love Mannlichers and this one is kinda cute....looks like a good job. Never seen one done to a carbine of this kind of quality. Enie, minie, miny, moe.....[;)] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by nmyers
But, I believe that a sporter stock is a change too far.
Just out of curiosity, if the seller put it in a standard surplus stock (some of those are still cheap enough -- I passed over one for $10 at a gun show the other week) and shipped it that way, would it be C&R qualified then? What if it included the custom stock as additional parts in the same shipped package?0 -
quote:Originally posted by competentone
quote:Originally posted by nmyers
But, I believe that a sporter stock is a change too far.
Just out of curiosity, if the seller put it in a standard surplus stock (some of those are still cheap enough -- I passed over one for $10 at a gun show the other week) and shipped it that way, would it be C&R qualified then? What if it included the custom stock as additional parts in the same shipped package?
If it's restored to military configuration, then yes. The stock could be sold separately. However, if the C&R buyer puts the custom stock on it, it's no longer a C&R firearm. That could cause a problem in his bound book, especially if he gets an ATF inspection (I got one two years ago).0 -
quote:Originally posted by Spider7115
If it's restored to military configuration, then yes. The stock could be sold separately. However, if the C&R buyer puts the custom stock on it, it's no longer a C&R firearm. That could cause a problem in his bound book, especially if he gets an ATF inspection (I got one two years ago).
Lets just clarify this and the above a bit.
The ATF has ruled that merely swapping sights on a C&R gun doesn't invalidate C&R status. You can put any sighting system you like on a C&R gun without altering its status (see below).
They've also determined that you can replace parts with modern recreations of period-authentic parts and still maintain C&R status. In other words, its perfectly OK to swap out an old splintered wood stock with a newly manufactured one, so long as the new one is similar in configuration to the original one. This is also true of any other internal gun parts. So long as the overall configuration of the gun is maintained, you can use any non-period parts you like (except the receiver, of course!).
Now, clearly putting a non-period folding stock on an M1 carbine makes it not a C&R status gun since its not in "original configuration".
My question/confusion here is what does this really "mean" with respect to C&R ownership status.
Specifically, let say I have a C&R M1 and for the sake of argument, I swap in some gaudy "tactical" stock for an afternoon of shooting (in reality, I'd never do this). When I do the swap, am I supposed to remove the gun from my bound book? If so, can I log it in again, if I put the original stock back on? I think in practice most C&R holders don't get inspected, and there may not even be an established BATFE rule on what happens here, but I'd like to know.
Taking a gun apart for cleaning or storage, obviously doesn't invalidate its C&R status, even if it when you do that its technically not in "original configuration".
quote:http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/curios-relics.html#modifications
Q: What modifications can be made on C&R firearms without changing their C&R classification?
The definition for curio or relic ("C & R") firearms found in 27 CFR ? 478.11 does not specifically state that a firearm must be in its original condition to be classified as a C&R firearm. However, ATF Ruling 85-10, which discusses the importation of military C&R firearms, notes that they must be in original configuration and adds that a receiver is not a C&R item. Combining this ruling and the definition of C&R firearms, the Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) has concluded that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon.
It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts, non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable-for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.
Edit: Spider, thanks for the clarification, that helped.
Obviously, if I temporarily swapped the stock on one gun, its fairly improbable that that anyone would ever find out or care. I just wanted to know the "by the book" correct thing to do, and you've made that clear.
In the meantime, I notice the auction seller of the item above has added a note saying he cannot accept a C&R license for transfer of this gun, so I guess this thread has had the desired effect!0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
My question/confusion here is what does this really "mean" with respect to C&R ownership status.
Specifically, let say I have a C&R M1 and for the sake of argument, I swap in some gaudy "tactical" stock for an afternoon of shooting (in reality, I'd never do this). When I do the swap, am I supposed to remove the gun from my bound book? If so, can I log it in again, if I put the original stock back on? I think in practice most C&R holders don't get inspected, and there may not even be an established BATFE rule on what happens here, but I'd like to know.
Taking a gun apart for cleaning or storage, obviously doesn't invalidate its C&R status, even if it when you do that its technically not in "original configuration".
If you purchase an eligible firearm under your C&R license, the spirit of the law requires that it remain as such or removed from your bound book as "transferred to personal collection" if alterations are made which render it ineligible under ATF regulations. As you stated, cleaning or disassembling it for storage would not apply.
Yes, in your scenario, you could replace the stock with a custom one for hunting or shooting purposes and probably get away with it but it would technically no longer be a C&R firearm.
I was simply defining the law itself and not the practical - or impractical - application of it.0 -
I was not aware that you could transfer a gun to your private collection if you modified it so it was no longer a C&R. Makes sense though I guess. I would think that period modifications, like a Marbles or Lyman tang sight added to a Stevens or Winchester Single Shot would not be a problem. I hate it when they make rules that need a lawyer to interpret. The sporter stock on the M1 carbine is prety obvious. A Stevens Single Shot with a Pope barrel added back in the day to me would be fine but the BATF might be able to find a problem with it if they were in a nasty mood that particular day. 0
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