Colt SAA Refinishing - Full Blue ??
I have this SAA .38 Colt cal with Colt letter info that the .38 Colt cal is original and ship date was Feb. 1, 1892. It has been expertly refinished with the frame blue like the rest, showing no signs of use since refinish. It has the ampersand mark on the trigger guard forward left leg and the Colt circled pony logo stamped next the Colts patent dates on the left lower frame. These are said to indicate return to Colts for some kind of service. Hammer looks to be new, replaced.
Several opinions believe Colt did at some time refinish in blue instead of color case. I'm trying to track down any info that may prove or disprove that my piece was in-fact Colt refinished. Colts do not keep factory return info records except on military contracts.
I am considering having the frame color-cased ($300 @ Turnbull) but would not do that with evidence the now-blue frame is Colt's. Info or comments appreciated.
Several opinions believe Colt did at some time refinish in blue instead of color case. I'm trying to track down any info that may prove or disprove that my piece was in-fact Colt refinished. Colts do not keep factory return info records except on military contracts.
I am considering having the frame color-cased ($300 @ Turnbull) but would not do that with evidence the now-blue frame is Colt's. Info or comments appreciated.
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quote:Several opinions believe Colt did at some time refinish in blue instead of color case.
you can still have an SAA refinished all blue.
the colt letter should specify the original finish.
tom0 -
That is a nice looking pistol. I would enjoy it just as it is. 0 -
I am 100% with Charlie on leaving that Colt the way it is .You have a handsome pistol there enjoy it for what it is and put that 300 on another Colt thats case hardened then you have the best of both types.Turnbulls finishes are some of the best being done.I caseharden myself but I am going to send them my Shutzen Dad brought back from Germany .Their work is hard to top so I can see how you would be tempted to have that Colt casehardened by them. 0 -
RH, Regarding your comments; "It has the ampersand mark on the trigger guard forward left leg and the Colt circled pony logo stamped next the Colts patent dates on the left lower frame. These are said to indicate return to Colts for some kind of service. Hammer looks to be new, replaced.":
From my experience the rework ampersand (&) or asterisk/star (*) is usually stamped on the right rear triggerguard bow; but, Keith Cochran in his Peacemaker Encyclopedia states that it is usually found on the left side rear of the triggerguard bow. However, as we all know, you can never say never with these old collectable guns.
With the stamp being on the left side forward triggerguard bow, this is usually where the early guns (earlier than 1892) had the caliber stamp and throughout production you will occasionally find inspector stamps in this location. In 1892 one inspector occasionally stamped a "G" or "g" on the left front triggerguard bow; is it possible you are seeing a "G" or "g" instead of an ampersand (&); they may appear similar?
Regarding the circled Rampant Colt; because of die wear and breakage over the years the circle started out to be a full circle and then gradually diminished in varying degrees to what some collectors refer to as the "Rampant Rocking Horse" (only an arc under the rear feet of the Colt), eventually to no circle at all. Without the use of a frame gauge, this roll stamp can indeed be a judge as to whether the frame has been taken down, removing the original stamp, and rerolled with a latter production stamp. For an 1892 Single Action the circle should be complete.
Regarding the hammer; if it has the bordered knurling with a slash below the border, then it is probably original to the gun. The length of the bordered panel became shorter over time until about 1906 when the slash no longer was applied and then you just had the bordered knurling until about 1909 when the hand applied bordered knurling was replaced with the no border rolled checkering.
Can you take and post a high resolution close up picture of the left side frame and triggerguard markings and a picture of the top of the hammer?
Edit to add: The dates I've cited regarding the hammer knurling/checkering are from my failing memory and might not be exact, but are close! [:D]0 -
Here are pix of the side marks and the hammer. Full circle on the pony and clear shot of the TG mark. I suspected the hammer due to the bottle shape firing pin and finer checkering at thumb point than on my other SAAs. Sides of the hammer are high polish. The reddish appearance is dried grease. Pix made with webcam. 0 -
RH, the true indicator that your 1892 Colt has been back to the factory is the factory proof mark on the left front triggerguard bow; that proof mark wasn't used by Colt on Single Actions until early 1905. The mark that was over stamped by the proof mark appears to be the "G" inspector mark I mentioned. The patent dates and Rampant Colt trademark were not re-rolled, but have been thinned some by the preparation when the gun was refinished, either at the factory or non-factory refinish.
The hammer does appear to me to be original for the period, based on the length of the bordered knurling and slash beneath, but the firing pin has been replaced.
The Single Action did go back to the Colt Factory at some point and whatever work had to be done required it to be proof fired, hence the "VP" in a triangle. Some reference books mistakenly state that Colt started using the proofmark on Single Actions in 1902; but Colt really didn't start using it on them until early 1905; so your gun went back to Colt sometime after 1905.
It is a nice job of refinishing, not over buffed, but I don't know if it was factory or not; it could be.
Are there any numbers stamped in hidden or visible places, other than the frame and loading gate assembly numbers and the Colt's serial numbers that are stamped in three places? If so, the extra numbers could be rework numbers.
What does your factory letter state for finish? If it only says "Blue"; then that usually means it was shipped with "Blue and Case Colors". If it was finished originally in full blue, then I believe it would have stated such, but you never can tell, the warehouse did make mistakes when they entered information on these guns.
Personally, I wouldn't be too quick to have the gun refinished by Turnbull; a hands on inspection by a highly knowledgeable collector might prove beneficial!!!!!!!!0 -
Thanks for all the info and for your time you took sending it. I think this gun may become a keeper. I bought it about $15 years ago for $600 at LGS, their thought it was refinished when caliber was changed. To me it was something I would rather have than that much money. In recent weeks I began thinking about thinning the herd a bit and for first time really looked at this piece. I got from Colt ARchives over the phone that it was shipped 1892 to an individual in Pittsburgh, PA, blue finish and .38 Colt cal, letter coming. All that said I still wonder about it's sale value.
I won't rush into the color case of the frame. It has at least come to the head of the candidates for that. I was thinking to send in a .45 made 1875 to Turnbulls for full treatment. It's an old brown gun, EXC but for finish. Near perfect bore, hardly any holster wear on the usual sharp edges - I've been dragging my feet because of the $3K estimate I got from Tbs.
I like Turnbulls from their work on my 1902 and 1905 distress cases I rework, etc, prep polish and send them to replace lettering and blue. All this is my 'estate collection', never sold anything.0
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