long range

SoreShoulder

February 12, 2012 09:03

I don't think you want a 22-250 unless you find one with an unusually fast twist and reload your own heavy bullet ammo for it. It is best with bullets of around 50 grains because most of the guns available in 22-250 come with a 1-14 twist which can't stabilize the longer, heavier bullets you want for good wind resistance at long range.

Supposedly the AR15 has done well in service rifle matches at 600 yards. They have 80 and 90 grain loads for it which have to be loaded singly because they are too long to feed as well as the blunter 77 gr which works fine through an AR. So why not get an AR or a bolt action with a fast twist in .223?

Speer No.11 loading manual had a ballistic table in the back which could tell you the velocity of a bullet at various ranges if you knew the BC of the bullet and its muzzle velocity. You want to make sure the bullet stays supersonic beyond 600 yards because when it passes through the transonic range, it gets buffeted and loses a lot of accuracy. You want a combination that will stay above 1070fps or so. The speed of sound gets lower at higher altitudes. Maybe there's programs or online guides which will tell you what to use. I don't know if the latest Speer manual has the tables.

The 22-250 and the .257 Weatherby would burn barrels quicker than a milder caliber like 223.

Do you want to shoot like they do in highpower matches or bench rest?

Edit: Highpower matches are fired with the rifle in your hands although a leather sling and heavy shooting jacket help with steadiness. My suggestion for an AR15 and the suggestion for a .303 Lee-Enfield are appropriate to this type of shooting. I think they shoot prone, sitting, and offhand.

There's also bench rest which is just what it sounds like: shooting from sandbags with a 24X scope from a shooting bench, which are often cast from concrete. I believe this is what the other guys had in mind although you could build a rifle for highpower-style shooting around most of the calibers and components they mentioned.

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bpost

February 12, 2012 09:31

Find or have built a Remington 700 or XP-100 action in 6BR with an 8 twist barrel, shoot 105 grain A-Max bullets and have fun. It burns right at ~30 grains of Varget so it is inexpensive to shoot. Recoil is mild, it is not a noted barrel burner and is downright fun to shoot all day.

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jonk

February 12, 2012 10:00

Bpost is right on. Other good options are the 6.5X284, 6.5X55, .284 winchester, etc.

Personally I don't find any problem shooting a 30-06 all day from a target weight gun, but that's me. If you're a fairly inexperienced shooter you might.

Look at the offerings from Savage such as the BVSS, FP,and LRPV.

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wpage

February 12, 2012 10:14

The 06 can be a long range shooter...

Lighter grain loads will flow hard and fast at long ranges with quality optics. As far a recoil advanced shoulder pads and but ends meet the need.

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tsr1965

February 12, 2012 10:16

tone59,

For getting to 600 yards with a 30 caliber, the 168 grain bullets are the minimum, but they will go out to 1000 yards too, depending on your scope base, and scope.

The 308 is an excellent round, and while it does have similar recoil to the 30-06, it is not quite as stiff. I would consider the 7mm-08, 260 Remington, or the 280 Remington for factory cartridges, for this task. I would actually lean heavily on the 260 Remington. It shoots flatter than a 270 Winchester, hits the shoulder like a 243 winchester, and has more energy than a 308 or 30-06 past 400-500 yards.

Be considerate of what rifle, base and scope you choose for this, as it is no small task.

Best

EDIT 1

tone59,

You have a very nice rifle there for hunting, but due to the wood stock, and the lack of good stable stocks for it, I have doubts that it can be consistant at 600 yards. It also needs a little heavier barrel contour, and actully a higher quality barrel. Those type of rifles that exhibit consistanc at long ranges have heavy wood stocks, or good carbon fiber/fiberglass/Kevlar composite stocks. Those stocks have pillars that are bedded to the bottom metal, and action, to create a 100% contact, stress free, launching platform. Even the current crop of injection molded stocks do not cut the mark. I'm not saying that your rifle will not be able to hit a pie plate at 600 yards on a regular basis, but asuredly not on a consistant basis.

The other part of your platform, is the scope. The 3-9x, is not enough for grouping at 600 yards, and perhaps not enough to even see a pie plate bullseye at that range. I speak this from experience. I have shot several deer from 400-550 yards(mostly in the Harrisville, NY area) with a Browning A-Bolt SS, in 300 Win Mag, that has a Burris Signature 3-12x on it. At 400 yards, a deer looks smallish on 12 power, let alone a pie plate at 600 yards. Nononsense was right on the money, with his suggestion of the Vortex Viper PST, as the scope you need. I have on on an extrmely accurate AR-10, in 308 Win., and I have the ability with it to go to at last 800 yards, but have not played much beyond that. I am shooting the 168 grain Hornady A-Max bullet. That Viper PST carries the best bang for the buck.

As for your rifle handling the 190 grainer's...yes it should handle them well,and it might even handle the Berger 190, and 210 VLD's OK too. Just about any bullet to the 240 grain Match King, will remain super sonic out to at least 1000 yards in your rifle.

Best

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nononsense

February 12, 2012 11:38

tone59,

"I am fairly inexperienced as a shooter."

No problem. Some help from experience shooters and LOTS of practice will cure that. Find a local club or group of shooters to get to know and see if they will help.

"Will not have a muzzle brake and plan to reload."

I don't care about the muzzle brake as this is a personal choice for most shooters. Some types of competition (even though you aren't planning to) don't allow them anyway so it won't hurt to learn without one. Muffs and plugs will alleviate the pain from high decibel reports.

"Are the BC too low for the smaller calibers to accurately reach out 600 yards?"

No, not at all. It depends on the bullet design and the twist rate of your barrel.

Many military shooters compete with the 5.56x45 (.223 Rem. to civilians) at 600 and 1,000 yards so small cartridges with 75, 80, or 90 grain VLD (high BC) bullets, you too can shoot at 600 yards. The difference is that the smaller cartridges and longer bullets usually take some experience to shoot and tune for top accuracy. This applies to the .22-250 also even though the velocity is potentially higher. The bigger drawback is the lack of commercially available fast twist barrels needed to stabilize those bullets in the .22-250.

For the sake of simplicity and success, I suggest using the standard .308 Win. There is a variety of rifles available commercially to begin shooting longer ranges without having to buy and wait for a custom rifle. Most commercial manufacturers have a model chambered for the .308 Win. so you aren't limited there. Components are everywhere and reasonably priced. There is s TON of reloading information because this cartridge get a broad range of uses in competitions. It can be loaded so that the recoil is reduced yet accuracy doesn't suffer. 600 yards doesn't require the high pressure loads seen with 1,000 yard Palma shooters.

I shoot a couple of variations of the 6mmBR that has been mentioned above but the drawback is the limitation of makers or having to buy a custom rifle. Savage is about the only manufacturer to field a type of rifle suited to shooting longer ranges. Right now we're seeing lots of these for sale or trade as the performance isn't holding up to the advertising. Most of the former Savage shooters are going with custom rifles instead. But that wouldn't stop you from looking at their offerings since you won't be competing anyway.

The big stumbling block is the necessity of having GREAT glass to enable you to see to shoot at 600 yards. Glass of this quality usually costs as much as the rifle. In order to contain the sticker shock, I suggest looking at the Vortex PST scopes as starting point.

Then it's the details. Good quality rail and rings to make that scope the best it can be. Federal Gold Medal Match ammunition to get you started then move into reloading your own. Learn to clean your rifle properly and at the right time. Front rest or good bags are needed. Shooting of a bipod for the first time is a little unnerving for some.

Get some good reading material also. Your library may have some resources or can them with a lending exchange system from other libraries. Sinclair International and others carry a good selection of instructional books on long range shooting and related competitions.

Do some searching for information on F-Class competitions with an emphasis on the F/TR class.

Best.

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tone59

February 12, 2012 13:18

This is all very interesting yet overwehlming.But the seemingly infinite number of variables is what makes it so interesting.
After reading all the excellent comments it seems as though what I currently have may be somewhat capable at long ranges.
It is a 30-06 Browning A-bolt medallion 22in w/boss and has a low end 3x9x40 Leupold.
The rifle only wieghs 6lbs.11oz thus has too much(for me)recoil.
The recoil system works well but I prefer using the tuner instead.
I bought it on a whim a few years ago.Thought it was so pretty!
Although far from an ideal format for a long range gun it does shoot well.
A friend(long time shooter)said I lucked out and got a good one.
After optimizing the tuner he shot 6-3 shot groups all between 1.25 and 1.75in at 200 yards with cheap 150gr.ammo.
Prior to reading some of your comments,I had ruled out the 30-06 caliber based on ballistics charts I had seen and the recoil issue.
With added shoulder padding and better optics it now seems that this rifle may do what I want.
Thought I had read 190gr had about the best BC for this cal.
Would 190gr be too slow to remain supersonic at long ranges?
The charts I have only show speeds out to 400 yards.
Thank you all for the detailed info.I am eager to find out more.

EDIT-tsr1965...Thank you very much.
Now looking for a Vortex Viper PST.And eventually a target rifle.
jonk...I have looked at ballistics for the 6.5x284 and 6.5x55.
Also,as tsr1965 suggested I am checking out the 260rem along with the 308.
I would like to find out the pros & cons of these 4 cals
Thanks again to all.

EDIT2-45er... sounds like alot of fun!Thank you for sharing and for the advice regarding a recoil pad.
I know a guy that will attest to the accuracy of a 303 Enfield.
As a teen(40 years ago)he was shot with one and still has part of the bullet(with no lasting ill effects)lodged at the base of his skull.
He claimed to be a victim of mistaken identity and was shot while driving directly away from the shooter at about 60mph.
The shot was taken at night from a kneeling position at about 80 yards with iron sights.
Luckily the bullet was slowed and split when it hit the metal support in the vehicles headrest.
The only other passenger in the car got down on the floor after hearing the first shot.Good idea.The shooter then put one through the other headrest.

EDIT3 SoreShoulder...At this point there is so much for me to learn.
I dont know what you mean when it comes to high power vs bench rest.
Thoughts of ever competing in a match are far away.
From reloading,optics,cal choice,triggers,and other tangibles I believe this type of shooting would be a fun and long lasting challenge.

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45er

February 12, 2012 16:42

Howdy tone59,

Let's see: non-competitive (informal) shooting, fairly inexperienced, .30-06 bites, plan to reload.

All that in mind equates to my idea of having FUN, now you're talking my language. I would not, nor have not, overlooked the venerable .303 British round. At great risk, of course, of being snubbed at as "obsolete", or "much better choices available", etc. All true, no arguement.

But it will do all as you are asking here none the less, reguardless what charts, grafts, the weather, the altitude, the moon in gemini, whatever, says in print.

For a "comfortable days's shooting", myself always turn to the .303 Enfields before picking up the Ought-6 1903's any day, recoil being a major factor. Long range, (300 yrd now for me, open sight), yeah mine are not tack-drivers none, yet always walk away pleased they outshoot better than my oldish eyes can.

Caliber/cartridge aside-- 600 yards is no slouch a distance... slowing working ones way up to that, getting to know rifle/caliber/yourself as one unit it's capabilties. Did someone mention practice? Lots of it?

Recoil: For big hitters, I bought a PAST recoil pad when they first appeared. Came with a should harness get-up. That sucker works! Only, could not stand the shoulder harness as like getting into a straight-jacket. So I cut the pad out, leaving enough border trim around it to re-sew it into the shoulder area inside a cheapo camo-hunting vest-- perfecto to this day!

That's my comments and suggestions
45er

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gunnut505

February 13, 2012 03:42

Great comments, and lotsa good info for anyone thinking about shooting consistently past 500yds.
I shoot a 300WM quite often, and have worked up loads which could be competitive at longer range shoots.
One recoil-related matter is personal mass; does your rifle weigh more than you do? Another question is what position you use when shooting; do you try to get in-line with the bore, or do you allow a little more body above the bench?

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