Help identify a Winchester model 42
I have decided to sell a few of my shotguns and need help identifying the correct grade of a winchester model 42. I believe it to be a standard grade skeet gun, but the blue book is confusing me about the wood and vent rib. It is a 3" chamber gun and was made in 1959. I know the wood is all original as is the rest of the gun. And since the first thing asked is for pictures, I am attaching several. Thanks guys.
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It looks like a Trap Grade Skeet gun. The serial number makes it a February 1957 vintage gun.
Unfortuantely, the "rest" of the gun is not original. It was positively reblued a long time ago.0 -
I just got off the phone with the original purchaser/owner of this gun. Up until two weeks ago it has always been in his possession and without a doubt it has never been reblued or had any modifications of any kind done to it. He stated it is exactally today as it was the day he took it out of the box. I will be more than willing to take more pictures of detailed areas if it will assist in the correct identification of this model. 0 -
In the first picture "Kansas City,Mo."is visible on the edge of the ventilated rib.I believe it says "Simmons" in front of that.Does that mean it is an after-market rib or did Simmons apply ribs for Winchester? 0 -
It is my understanding that in the latter years of production, Winchester set their barrels in the white to Simmons to have the ribs installed. When they were returned they were then blued and serialed to the receiver. Here is a little better picture. [img][/img] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by clays
It is my understanding that in the latter years of production, Winchester set their barrels in the white to Simmons to have the ribs installed. When they were returned they were then blued and serialed to the receiver. Here is a little better picture. [img][/img]
OK, number one, there are to many inconsistancies. Yes, Winchester did have Simmon's install ribs on ome of their latter guns for them...If you want to believe the blue book.
Number two, if it were a Trap Skeet, there would be the word "TRAP" stamped under the serial number on the frame...once again, if you believe the Blue Book.
Three, there should be a diamond on the bottom of the grip on the stock...your pictures don't show that, so is there?
The stock after looking at the fit and finish of the top tang area, looks to be not original to the gun. I am sure the seller wants you to believe that your hard earned $$ bought an original, not a fake.
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Glad it was given to you. I do believe that is not the original stock on that gun...especially for the forearm that it wears. The fit and finish around the tang is suspect.
Yes I do believe that Simmons could have possibly installed ribs for Winchester. That is possibly. But why would they , when they were busy installing ribs on their other shotguns? It could be also possible, that Simmons bought up a bunch of plain barreled 42's and ribbed them. I don't believe everything the BlueBook says, no...that is true, especially about Winchester's. I do believe some of the elder's(sorry Bert) on here though that have been a thourough student of researching Winchester...Which a lot of the info in the BlueBook is not. It is mearely taken from somewhere else. How they arrive at their pricing is very skeptical too.
If you really want to know what you have your hands on, and how it left the factory, then go here.
http://www.bbhc.org/explore/firearms/firearms-records/
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Since the stock seems to be the most contraversial item I removed it today and took more pictures. The checkering is 20 lpi.
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tsr, it sounds as if you do not believe that simmons installed ribs for Winchester.
If it were a trap/skeet gun (which it is not), it would not have a simmons vent rib installed on it. It is not stamped TRAP
There is not a diamond on the bottom of the stock.
Finally, there was no seller, the gun was given to me.0 -
Clays,
The past owner of that gun has lied to you... it most definitely has been reblued. I am very adept at identifying reblue/refinish work, and your gun clearly exhibits all of the classic signs.
The the straight grip butt stock and the stock checkering pattern on your Model 42 are listed in the catalogs, and by Ned Schwing (in his superb reference book on the Model 42) as being made for the Trap Grade Skeet gun or Deluxe Grade guns only. The serial number (production date) on your gun precludes it from being a Deluxe Grade gun. So, if you are completely convinced that it is not a Trap Grade Skeet gun, that confirms what tsr1965 stated about the stocks not being orignal to that gun. I also agree that the butt stock fit at the top tang on the receiver is not correct.
One important thing that you did not show in your posted pictures was the proof mark stamp on the barrel, and the one on the receiver frame. Please post pictures of the Winchester Proof stamps.0 -
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=271473825
I understand what you are saying but picture #14 in this auction looks just like mine. I cannot find any proof marks.
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I just searched the receiver over and the only stamping I can find are the letters EO in front of the slide release. Same with the barrel, it only says Winchester proof steel. Am I not looking in the right places?quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
Clays,
The past owner of that gun has lied to you... it most definitely has been reblued. I am very adapt at identifying reblue/refinish work, and your gun clearly exhibits all of the classic signs.
The the straight grip butt stock and the stock checkering pattern on your Model 42 are listed in the catalogs, and by Ned Schwing (in his superb reference book on the Model 42) as being made for the Trap Grade Skeet gun or Deluxe Grade guns only. The serial number (production date) on your gun precludes it from being a Deluxe Grade gun. So, if you are completely convinced that it is not a Trap Grade Skeet gun, that confirms what tsr1965 stated about the stocks not being orignal to that gun. I also agree that the butt stock fit at the top tang on the receiver is not correct.
One important thing that you did not show in your posted pictures was the proof mark stamp on the barrel, and the one on the receiver frame. Please post pictures of the Winchester Proof stamps.0 -
The proof marks are small ovals with WP logo inside.They're opposite each other .One on the barrel and one on the receiver. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by clays
I just searched the receiver over and the only stamping I can find are the letters EO in front of the slide release. Same with the barrel, it only says Winchester proof steel. Am I not looking in the right places?
If you can not clearly see the superposed "WP" proof mark stamp on the top forward part of the receiver, that is another very positive indication that the gun has been buffed, polished, and reblued. The proof mark on the barrel will be on the left rear side, right next to the Vent Rib, and just forward of the receiver. However, if the gun originally left the factory with no VR, the proof mark is now hidden under the VR, which indicates that it is not an original factory Simmons installed rib. Instead, it was installed after the fact. If it was installed after the fact, it most likely also covered the proof mark stamp on the top of the receiver.
Post a clear close-up picture showing the top left side of the receiver and barrel.
Edit: Take a good look at picture #11 in this auction - http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=2723000650 -
The gun should have offset proof marks if it were installed at Winchester or simmons originally. My opinion that it was sent to simmons for rib installation and reblue sometime after 1957, as the posts are oval. Could have had wood upgraded at that time, no way to tell.
Winchester would not install ribs on a 42 unless it came originally with a rib. They would not even make an extra barrel with a vent rib unless the gun originally came with a VR.
Nice gun though!0
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