Trap door ammo
I was at a NSSA shoot this past weekend and there were a few of the old civil war muskets that were converted to the trapdoor firing mechanism for sale. A couple of the guys selling them said you can fire 20 gauge shotgun ammo out of these. Is that true??
csaduck
csaduck
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No. The 20 gauge is to large in diameter. To fit in a unaltered 50/70 or 45/70 Trapdoor. They had specific smooth bored Trap Door, Forager models, that were chambered for 20 gauge shotshells. 0 -
Rufe is on it as always. The first and second allin conversions were made from Civil war Springfields and were in .58 rim fire and then 50/70 center fire and would not have had barrel stock large enough to take a 20 gauge shell. Always be extraordinarily circumspect about what you hear from those experts at the gun shows(or for that matter online!) as they see to have the tendency to tell you things that will get you killed. The trapdoor mechanism fitted to those Allin conversions was NEVER INTENDED TO HANDLE SMOKELESS POWDER PRESSURES! Erskine Allin was a gifted designer and arsenal inspector (that ESA cartouche you see is his initials from Springfield Armory) but I doubt he would encourage us to push his 148 year old design to those limits. If someone who is a member of NSSA told you that, they should be flogged. Also, there aren't a whole hell of a lot of first and second Allins out there anymore so the thought of destroying any of them by such practices should make any NSSA sick to their stomach. Some people!!! 0 -
The OP 's comments, and the N-SSA should not be judged without knowing any of the details. There were a lot of the old trapdoors that were converted to shotguns by outfits such as Bannerman, Stokes Kirk, and others. They could be one of those. And, of course, there were the original 20 ga Foragers made by Springfield.
And, smokeless powder loads can be used in the trapdoors. As long as the pressures do not exceed the BP loads, they are perfectly safe. "Smokeless" does not automatically mean high pressure.
Ray0 -
As a member of the N-SSA and knowing most of the sutlers on a first name basis, I don't know who would have told you that if not true; it could well have been a conversion. And, given the pressures of a 20 gauge load, would be more or less within the trapdoor's ability.
I HAVE on occasion heard of people using brass 20 gauge shells and turning the rims along with full length forming to make 50/70 shells, but otherwise, if the guy was saying you could fire either or out of it... no.0 -
I didn't look all that close at the guns they were probably conversions to 20 gage shotgun. I was just asking, not all that interested in them. Just thought this was strange for a musket. 0 -
Hey Cheechako. Just so we're clear here, the OP stated civil war muskets converted to trap door. In my parlance that means an Allin conversion and NOT a '73 or newer trap door, so a Forager model '73 or later would be off the possibles list. As an Allin conversion, it would NOT be as robust as later purpose built trapdoors and therefor even if a Bannerman conversion I would suggest being extraordinarily circumspect about modern ammo. Probably not chambered for any 20 ga readily available so the possibilities of over pressure in a modern smokeless load IS an issue. I've owned and shot a few Second Allins using modern BPS in my day and I can assure you I would relegate it to display if a conversion to shotshell was done and I wasn't an advanced reloader capable of tailoring loads to purpose. Either way, there WASNT a lot of detailed info there from the OP so erring on the side of caution is likely the best bet. Didn't neccesarily mean to slam NSSA members, but if the info I was presented with was generally correct then I would have to say someone at the suttlers booth was smoking crack if they stated a modern smokeless 20 ga shotshell would be useable in a converted '63 Springfield! Nothing like becoming a cautionary tale in the gun collecting hobby! 0 -
Back when they were cheap, years ago, I got on a binge to acquire a trap door Springfield to play with (shoot), but was quickly dissuaded by the number of hinge failures I saw. Don't know how they happened, but it's not hard to imagine a moderately warm .45-70 round finding its way into one. The action looks like a bank vault, but it's made of 150 year old iron. Smokeless shotgun recipes can run north of 15,000 psi, probably beyond comfortable black powder trapdoor level. Somebody, I think H&R, was making repros a few years ago. Better to shoot them and leave these increasingly pricey relics to their deserved retirement. 0 -
Thanks folks, glad I passed on this gun. 0
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