Smooth Bore Rifle thread II
They lock threads in the ATE forum after ten replies. I made a post but didn't get my point across and now I can't stand it.
The purpose is to have a shotgun. They use a rifle action and caliber because there may not be enough demand for a "real" shotgun with cushioned wads in that size, so you use the shot cartridges which anyone with your caliber can use.
Rifling would tend to spread the shot. If all you want to shoot are small shot cartridges, going smoothbore makes sense because it improves patterns.
.410 shells obsoleted the .44 caliber single shot smoothbore rifle which I mentioned, but smoothbore .22s are still available for the smallest shotgunning tasks (or they were when Marlin was producing the Garden Gun, not sure about others.)
The T/C Contender was available in .45 Colt/.410 shotgun. It was rifled but had a screw-in choke which had straight riflings in order to stop the .410 wad from spinning because spinning would lead to worse patterning of the shot.
The purpose is to have a shotgun. They use a rifle action and caliber because there may not be enough demand for a "real" shotgun with cushioned wads in that size, so you use the shot cartridges which anyone with your caliber can use.
Rifling would tend to spread the shot. If all you want to shoot are small shot cartridges, going smoothbore makes sense because it improves patterns.
.410 shells obsoleted the .44 caliber single shot smoothbore rifle which I mentioned, but smoothbore .22s are still available for the smallest shotgunning tasks (or they were when Marlin was producing the Garden Gun, not sure about others.)
The T/C Contender was available in .45 Colt/.410 shotgun. It was rifled but had a screw-in choke which had straight riflings in order to stop the .410 wad from spinning because spinning would lead to worse patterning of the shot.
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I had a 10" barrel TC in 44 Mag with a fold down rear sight and a internal screw in choke for use with their 'Hot Shot' capsules. It patterned ok and was effective.
I later found that I could load those capsules in my Ackley 45-350 Rem. Mag. by using a Remington one piece power piston wad .410 wad as a sabot. The really quick twist and the parabolic cut rifling along the slippage of plastic on plastic seems to prevent the shot from spinning. MV is about 2200 fps from the 18" tube. 9 grouse in seven shots. 2 pair of doubles on the ground by lining them up, the rest taken on the wing. Front sight is a Lyman globe type, rear is a Lyman 48 with an iris aperture. I take the slide assembly completely out when wing shooting. Rifle is 5.25# fully load with sling.0 -
quote: quote:me: By definition a "rifle" has a rifled barrel. So a smoothbored gun isn't really a rifle, strictly speaking.
Nononsense: This is incorrect by exception alone if nothing else. The 'modern' definition does [not?] involve the use of the term rifling in its definition This goes to semantics, but I've never seen any definition of a "rifle" that doesn't specify a rifled barrel, modern or otherwise. If you know of a source with a different definition, I'd love to see it.
People do call shoulder fired smoothbore guns "rifles" if they accept conventional rifle cartridges and are otherwise similar to existing conventional rifles. But this is a deliberate oxymoron to put the term "smoothbore" in context. EG, even if it isn't "really" a rifle, I can why you might want to call something like a smoothbored Marlin 39 a "rifle" since its effectively the same exact gun as a "real" rifle.
quote:but the exceptions are the Steyr ACR as well as other types of rifles utilizing a smooth bore barrels to control flechette or fin stabilized dart held in a sabot.With due respect to Steyr's marketing team, calling a smooth bored dart gun a "rifle" doesn't make it one, no matter how nifty the platform. I can see why they would want to use that term, but that doesn't make it correct. EDIT: As mentioned below, apparently this thing does use a rifled barrel. So sure, its a "rifle", albeit an unconventional one.
If any aimed shoulder fired weapon is a "rifle" then why isn't a shotgun a rifle? Any shotgun can fire spin-stabilized slugs, saboted slugs, or flechette rounds, right? (If you want to argue that a shotgun with a screw-in rifled choke or shallow rifling is a "rifle". . .you'll get none from me. . .I think either of those would qualify). Heck, why isn't THIS a "rifle"? Its a shoulder-stocked smoothbore repeater firing drag-stabilized darts! [;)][}:)]
A bit more seriously, I'm not saying these types of guns are no good, just that they're not rifles. The Steyr, like the older Russian underwater dart-firing Kalasknikov are simply weapons in their own class. They share most features with rifles. . .just not the "main" one that defines a rifle!
quote:This is an example of where a definition becomes far too specific for the rapidity of changes in the modern day. Other exceptions are the smooth bore muzzle loading rifles of yesterday and currently.Well, granting the exceptions you alluded to, these seem to be pretty obscure, to the point where most shooters will never actually see these things in the real world. So far as I can tell, the overwhelming majority of "rifles" out there in military and civilian hands are conventional ones. So personally I don't think its too confusing or restrictive to limit use of the term rifle to its traditional meaning.
Also, as clarification here, I believe the most widely accepted and historically accurate term for a smoothbore shoulder fired muzzle-loading firearm is a "musket". Even in the 18th century the distinction between a "musket" and a "rifle" was widely understood (and debated). These were simply different classes of guns for different purposes.
Getting back to the original question on rifle vs smoothbore, MUSKETS (not rifles) were standard issue military weapons until the 19th century because until the advent of reliable breechloading cartridge systems rifles many disadvantages outweighed their one big one of increased accuracy. Muskets were easier and quite a bit less expensive to manufacture in quantity, easier to train soldiers to use, easier to maintain, and quite a bit faster to reload, yielding significantly increased rate of fire.
If we're talking about HUNTING with single-shot muzzleloading guns, then rifles dominate. In that setting, rate of fire is almost irrelevant. Whether it takes only 10 seconds to reload your musket or 60 seconds for your rifle doesn't really matter, since reloading is still relatively slow, involving gross movement. After your first shot, its pretty unlikely that your game will still be standing there 10 seconds later for a second one, let alone a minute later. So in THAT context, the accuracy of a rifle is a huge benefit. . .its the only way you're going to reliably connect with a game animal past 50 yards or so, or a small one at even closer ranges.
EDIT: quote:"Rant"
Very funny. [;)]
Obviously, with any classification system there are going to be individual examples that blur the lines. Also, for a variety of reasons, there are going to be cases where people use terms in ways not entirely consistent with their accepted meanings. So we have smoothbore rifles, rifled muskets, rifled shotguns, shotgun-rifles, dart-gun rifles, rifle-handguns, short-barreled rifles, and other individual examples of firearms that either might not neatly fit into usual categories, or maybe could be put in more than one, or get called something that maybe is or isn't 100% correct. All of this is getting away from the original question, of why anyone would want a "smoothbore rifle".
The point is, if we want to answer that question we to know what is meant by the term, that's all. I'm pretty sure the original poster wasn't asking about the Steyr ACR, since like probably everyone else commenting here, including myself, he's never actually seen nor shot one! I'm not so sure he wasn't talking about muzzle-loading muskets, though! In any case, at this point, the original question has been pretty definitively answered, I think, so no need for more bloviation. [}:)]0 -
rant
rant/
verb
verb: rant; 3rd person present: rants; past tense: ranted; past participle: ranted; gerund or present participle: ranting
1.
speak or shout at length in a wild, impassioned way.
"she was still ranting on about the unfairness of it all"
synonyms: fulminate, go on, hold forth, vociferate, sound off, spout, pontificate, bluster, declaim; More
shout, yell, bellow;
informalmouth off
"she ranted about the unfairness"
noun
noun: rant; plural noun: rants
1.
a spell of ranting; a tirade.
"his rants against organized religion"
synonyms: tirade, diatribe, broadside; More
literaryphilippic
"he went into a rant about them"
Origin[:D][}:)][:D]
As noted for accomodation of more than one type of ammunition. Being as one may be more intended for the use of a single projectile, it identifies with "rifle" (though none present). If it identifies with use of multiple projectiles, then such is usually called a shotgun.
In today's day and age, the ability to machine either to a great degree is simple enough. But, there are those around who still buy in enough quantity, a smoothbore, no matter what it is called.0 -
Now everyone knows why, A.T.E posts get locked after 10 replies.
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quote:Originally posted by beantownshootahAlso, as clarification here, I believe the most widely accepted and historically accurate term for a smoothbore shoulder fired muzzle-loading firearm is a "musket". Even in the 18th century the distinction between a "musket" and a "rifle" was widely understood (and debated). These were simply different classes of guns for different purposes. A musket is a full stocked military firearm. The term did not go out of use right away with the advent of rifling or cartridges.
Many of the muskets used by the armies of central Europe were rifled even before the advances in bullets in the 19th century.0 -
Well, you know them people at Winchester, etc, didn't know what they were talking about when they offered "muskets".
You can get all mechanical and say that it isn't a rifle unless the barrel is rifled, unless of course it is a rifled shotgun slug barrel.
But as I said in the first thread, there is a recognized class of Pennsylvania-Kentucky long guns known as "smoothbore rifles" or just "smooth rifles."
The Steyr ACR fletchette shooter did indeed have a rifled barrel. The twist was very slow, I recall a turn per 100 inches, meant not to spin the fin stabilized dart, but to separate the sabot upon muzzle exit by centrifugal force instead of depending on airflow.
Should we get into the difference between a rifle musket and a rifleD musket?0
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