W. Richards Double Barrel Shotgun - Help!
Picked up this puppy (think it is a 12 Gauge) and "was" trying to understand it markings, history and age.
It will be nothing but a wall hanger. I can't explain it - but I really love its looks and feel.
Anyway - I did post this on another Forum and found out it was Belgian (per the top mark in your 4th photo) and probably dated in the 1890's.
I learned that it was a "knock-off" made to look like a "Westley Richards" shotgun. I don't care - it still is neat. I am posting here in case their is more information available.
Thanks everyone for your time.
W. Richards (play on Westley Richards)
No Information
"STAR over N" is the maker's mark
Top mark is the Belgian Obelisk Proof mark (perron) which is the old city seal of Liege which means the ShotGun was made in Belgium
Laminated Steel
It will be nothing but a wall hanger. I can't explain it - but I really love its looks and feel.
Anyway - I did post this on another Forum and found out it was Belgian (per the top mark in your 4th photo) and probably dated in the 1890's.
I learned that it was a "knock-off" made to look like a "Westley Richards" shotgun. I don't care - it still is neat. I am posting here in case their is more information available.
Thanks everyone for your time.
W. Richards (play on Westley Richards)
No Information
"STAR over N" is the maker's mark
Top mark is the Belgian Obelisk Proof mark (perron) which is the old city seal of Liege which means the ShotGun was made in Belgium
Laminated Steel
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It is a "JABC" (Just Another Belgian Clunker). It is best relegated to being a mantle decoration, and should not be fired. I suspect that it has 65mm chambers (2-1/2"). 0 -
Most likely the barrels are of Damascus construction. Most of the Belgian made shotguns of the late 19th, early 20th Centuries. Used this type of mandrell formed, forge welded barrels.
The "Star over W", is the mark of a particular Belgian inspector. It might be possible to get a general time frame. Of the shotguns manufacture by running this down. One of the members had a list of the inspectors, and the years they worked.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.It is a "JABC" (Just Another Belgian Clunker). It is best relegated to being a mantle decoration, and should not be fired. I suspect that it has 65mm chambers (2-1/2").
Thanks for the quick reply Bert. Yea, just shy of 1/2 inch (chamber diameter). Firing this puppy would be very very risky![:D]
Roger on the JABC - never ever planned on firing it - purchased to hang it up as a conversation piece. Still - it is very old and knowing its history is neat. Funny, knowing what we know now - just think about all the one's purchased and actually used back-in-the-day.0 -
quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow
...The "Star over W", is the mark of a particular Belgian inspector. It might be possible to get a general time frame. Of the shotguns manufacture by running this down. One of the members had a list of the inspectors, and the years they worked.
Thanks Rufe - I did find that the Star over N (replaced a crown) over N in 1877.
UPDATE: A little disappointed - I found BELGIAN PROOF MARKS which states that the * over N breaks down to the following:
Name of the Controller Couchant Louis (1923-1952)
Name of the Controller Scorpion Maurice (1959-1968)
Name of the Controller Scorpion Maurice (1974-1990)
Now I wonder if this link (above) that talks about a Controller of Proof Codes is the same as a Belgian Inspector since they both use * over N? If they are in fact the same - my puppy isn't near as old as I thought. So confusing...[:)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by VPNAVY
quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow
...The "Star over W", is the mark of a particular Belgian inspector. It might be possible to get a general time frame. Of the shotguns manufacture by running this down. One of the members had a list of the inspectors, and the years they worked.
Thanks Rufe - I did find that the Star over N (replaced a crown) over N in 1877.
UPDATE: A little disappointed - I found BELGIAN PROOF MARKS which states that the * over N breaks down to the following:
Name of the Controller Couchant Louis (1923-1952)
Name of the Controller Scorpion Maurice (1959-1968)
Name of the Controller Scorpion Maurice (1974-1990)
Now I wonder if this link (above) that talks about a Controller of Proof Codes is the same as a Belgian Inspector since they both use * over N? If they are in fact the same - my puppy isn't near as old as I thought. So confusing...[:)]
The German invasion and occupation of Leige Belgium. And it's manufacturing/proofing facilities in 1914. Ended Belgian firearms production for at least 4 years. Because of this 1914, is considered the cutoff date for the Belgian Damascus hammer guns.
IMHO, very unlikely because of this, your shotgun would have been made any later then 1914. Actually it appears to me, to date to the much earlier 1880's/90's time frame?
EDIT #1,
The photos you have posted, are of common Belgian Proof Marks. The most important one, as far as you're concerned. Is the "ELG", in a oval. Because there is no "Crown", on top of the oval. The proof is from the early Black Powder era, prior to 1891. IMHO, this would conclusively date your shotgun.0 -
quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow...very unlikely because of this, your shotgun would have been made any later then 1914. Actually it appears to me, to date to the much earlier 1880's/90's time frame?...
Yea - that is what I think (1880's/90's) - thanks again for your help.0 -
Just found some more markings... 0 -
quote:Originally posted by VPNAVY
Just found some more markings...
Lack of a crown on the ELG in oval Liege proofmark indicates made before 1893.0 -
quote:Originally posted by hrf...Lack of a crown on the ELG in oval Liege proofmark indicates made before 1893...
Super - I found that reference elsewhere as well. I am still a little confused by Belgian Inspector mark (* over N) indicates 1923+ which is in direct conflict with the ELG proof mark (without the crown). I sure would hate to be the person that certifies this stuff - very confusing![:)]0 -
Gentlemen,
Could the afore-mentioned "Belgian Inspector mark (* over N) indicates 1923+" mean that this shotgun was reproofed, at a later date?
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