Help With Mosin Nagant Project
I'm looking to buy my first mosin nagant with intent cleaning it up, and using to hunt North American game. I'm planning on either refinishing the stock, or purchasing a bare stock and finishing it myself.I'm also considering replacing the iron myself as it's needed. Any suggestions on which model would be the easiest to tear apart and reassemble? I know that the iron can be hard to tinker with and replacing anything would cost more than the firearm, but I am not to concerned with this.
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The M-N's rebuilt in Finland for use by their military, have a very good rep. IMHO, you would be ahead of the game by basing your build on one of the Model 39, Finns. There the most common of the Finns, and you wouldn't be bubba'ing a valuable collectors item. 0 -
There is an article in a late 1940's American Rifleman on sporterizing the M-N rifle. It was turned into a very attractive rifle. The bolt handle can be lengthened and sloped to the rear and the magazine can be shortened, if desired. I would not shorten the barrel any less than 22 inches. This is a 30-06 class cartridge and the muzzle blast and recoil would be increased. I am no expert but they all come apart the same and are of simple design. A round receiver would be preferred as a sporter. 0 -
Rufe I've read a lot of your post on here and you seem very knowledgeable about the Mosin Nagants.
Besides saving a collectors item, why the Model 39 and not the M44 or Type 53? And if its only to save the firearm for collectors what if I purchased one with a cracked stock and replaced it? Or are cracked stocks still considered as collectors? My end goal is to take a beaten up Mosin Nagant and restore it similar to the picture of Dondalinger's M44 posted here on the forums.0 -
I think the 91/30s were arsenal refinished before being cosmolined and stored. All the pieces should be there. They are still in gunshops and it should be possible to inspect what you buy. They are the best buy.
Make sure you get a good barrel. Bring a rod and ask if they'll let you patch out the cosmoline. ICYDK the wear shows mostly at the very start of the rifling and a Soviet barrel should have just enough freebore to allow a round to chamber plus a little bit.
I haven't seen a nice M44 carbine in a gunshop for a while. The M91/30 has a 28.75" barrel which may be awkward and easy to bend if you put it in a sporter stock. Other than that, they're the same. I can't speak for how good the Chinese produced carbines were.
EDIT: The Ex-Soviet rifles have birch or laminated stocks. Birch is kind of plain but it makes a strong, stable stock wood. If you strip it it will be white like the color of maple. It's a good stock but some will have kind of a large gap between wood and metal.
The Finnish rifles came with some of the best barrels ever put on a military rifle but I don't see it justifying the cost for a project rifle. Maybe an expert can tell if they require the "7.62x53" ammo which has a bullet that can be used in the .309 Finnish barrels and the larger .310-312 Soviet barrels. It's probably more expensive. I would guess that Prvi 7.62x54 ammo is built to the Soviet standard but IDK. I also hear the M27s and M39s were often stocked with weaker wood out of wartime necessity. They often have reused Soviet actions.
Edit: The prewar guns might be the best but under the cosmoline you might find a mix of force matched wartime parts and a sandblasted bolt from different arsenals (star=Tula, triangle=Ishevsk.)0 -
quote:Originally posted by navc130
There is an article in a late 1940's American Rifleman on sporterizing the M-N rifle. It was turned into a very attractive rifle. The bolt handle can be lengthened and sloped to the rear and the magazine can be shortened, if desired. I would not shorten the barrel any less than 22 inches. This is a 30-06 class cartridge and the muzzle blast and recoil would be increased. I am no expert but they all come apart the same and are of simple design. A round receiver would be preferred as a sporter.
Looking to keep it in the 7.62X54r and keep the original barrel length. We get sardine cans of this ammunition where I work and at 20% off I really like that deal.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Dr.Nipps
Rufe I've read a lot of your post on here and you seem very knowledgeable about the Mosin Nagants.
Besides saving a collectors item, why the Model 39 and not the M44 or Type 53? And if its only to save the firearm for collectors what if I purchased one with a cracked stock and replaced it? Or are cracked stocks still considered as collectors? My end goal is to take a beaten up Mosin Nagant and restore it similar to the picture of Dondalinger's M44 posted here on the forums.
The Model(s) 44 & 53 carbines, because of their short barrels have horrific muzzle blast and flash. Really ugly unpleasant guns to shoot. Ok for a truck gun to keep behind the seat. Not something you want to do a lot of shooting with.
All the Finish rifles, were made with Russian receivers. They used their own barrels, stocks and furniture, when assembling them though. I just figured because of your original comments, it would be the best quality M-N you could start with.
The 91-30's were made in the millions. If you do decide on one of them? Get one with a date prior to 1939. Likely it would be higher quality than the later ones made during the war. When the Soviet Union was between a rock and a hard place.0 -
Thanks everyone for the help. Gonna look around and do little more research before I jump right into my first Mosin Nagant. Don't worry I'll keep ya'll posted as I progress through the project.
Secondly, SoreShoulder mention birch wood; anyone else ever redo the finish on a firearm's stock? If so what wood, and finish removing techniques did you use? Also any recomendations on where I can purchase a bare stock for Mosin Nagant if I choose to go down this road?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Dr.Nipps
I'm looking to buy my first mosin nagant with intent cleaning it up, and using to hunt North American game. I'm planning on either refinishing the stock, or purchasing a bare stock and finishing it myself.I'm also considering replacing the iron myself as it's needed. Any suggestions on which model would be the easiest to tear apart and reassemble? I know that the iron can be hard to tinker with and replacing anything would cost more than the firearm, but I am not to concerned with this.
Well, as food for thought, here's mine. Its a stock M44 carbine, with the bayonet removed, and an aftermarket scope base with a 2x Leupold pistol scope in "scout" position. I also added an extended recoil pad both to increase the length of pull and cushion the (considerable) recoil, plus a piece of foam is taped under the shell holder to act as a cheekrest.
Recoil is brisk, but not "crazy" with the recoil pad, and I'd say this setup is great for any medium game at 150 yards or less. For longer than that, I'd say you really want a more conventional sight setup.
In general, 95%+ of the Mosins on the market have been "re-aresenalled" meaning they've been reblued so they're cosmetically nice on the outside and put into working order. In terms of "sporterization", there is no need to reinvent the wheel here. . .people have been doing this for years, and with this particular platform, the mods are pretty common and established.
First thing: The original Mosin stocks were a 19th century design intended for use by short Russian peasants. For adult Americans they are both too short and the line of sight is too low. So you can either add a buttpad and cheekrest (which is what I did), or you can just replace the entire stock with a with an aftermarket contemporary Monte-carlo style one. Those can be had relatively cheaply, including some nice laminate types/styles from Richard's microfit. Then I'd make sure it was free-floated to help maximize accuracy.
On sighting (I assume that's what you mean by "irons"), a very simple thing to do is replace the rear sight with an aftermarket aperture one by Mojo Sights. Unfortunately you don't get any improvement in sight RADIUS, but the sight picture is improved. http://www.mojosights.com/mosin_nagant.html
Another relatively easy thing to do is replace the rear sight with an aftermarket scope base, to which you can mount a long-eye relief pistol/"scout" type scope as I did, or even just a red-dot sight.
Yes its possible to drill and tap the receiver to put in a conventional scope mount, but then you also have to have the bolt handle bent/altered to clear the scope during use. This will add significant cost, permanently destroy any collectors value the gun may have, and also make it harder to load the gun (ie you can't use stripper clips with the scope in place).
Timney makes a very good aftermarket trigger that is both adjustable for pull weight AND gives you an easy to manipulate safety. That's a good addition, I think, though the trigger costs as much as the whole rifle! The trigger mechanism is simple enough that its possible to do a home trigger job on these guns. You can "google" how, if you're so inclined, just realize that trigger jobs do carry some risk of making any given gun unsafe.
One mod that some people do is weld a ring onto the rear of the bolt cocking knob to more easily manipulate the guns intrinsic safety. (Yes, you can pull this back and rotate it a 1/4 turn to act as a safety, but its not that easy to grasp, nor fast).
On which gun to start with, the shorter carbines have a lot of muzzle blast and are super loud. so I'd say all else being equal, you're probably better off with a 91/30 that has a long barrel and no bayonet to mess with. Most of these were manufactured before WWII and may have better intrinsic build quality too. *BUT* I'd say that having a good bore is the most important thing of all. Lots (in fact most) of these surplus guns saw actual WWII military use and they were shot with corrosive ammo and neglected. So the bores can be extremely nasty, with deep pits and corrosion, etc. Good ones ARE out there, but you may have to go through many individual guns before you find one with a good bore.
I lucked out in that the M44 I got above had an excellent bore. While the stock wood was dinged up, the actual bore looked like the gun had barely been shot at all, and it lacks the "counterbore" that many of these M44s have. If you're committed to adding a stock anyway, you may be able to find a bare gun action with no stock relatively cheap. A few years back I got a Hungarian Mosin action for under $50. The bluing on the outside was gone, I think from bad storage, but it looked like the barrel had never been shot.
The Finnish Mosins are known for the best barrels and triggers, but they also cost more and are typically harder to find.
Hope that helped a little bit.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Dr.Nipps
Thanks everyone for the help. Gonna look around and do little more research before I jump right into my first Mosin Nagant. Don't worry I'll keep ya'll posted as I progress through the project.
Secondly, SoreShoulder mention birch wood; anyone else ever redo the finish on a firearm's stock? If so what wood, and finish removing techniques did you use? Also any recomendations on where I can purchase a bare stock for Mosin Nagant if I choose to go down this road?
ATI makes an OK polymer Monte-Carlo type Mosin stock. It won't win any awards for beauty, but its durable and not too expensive.
If you want a more conventional wood stock, see here:
http://www.rifle-stocks.com/
In general, see above about my comments on stocks. IMO, you'll get better performance with an aftermarket stock, though perhaps for cosmetic/nostalgia/interest reasons you may wish to keep the original Mosin pattern one.
If you want to go nuts, check out the new Promag "Archangel" stock for the Mosins. This design also lets you use their proprietary detachable 5 and 10 (!) round magazines:0 -
I've refinished Mosin stocks using various grits of sandpaper down to about 220. I use sandpaper on a bull-nosed dowel to remove the finish from the finger groove, which keeps the edges of the grooves sharp. I've darkened the wood on some with walnut stain, and others I left in their natural blonde. On a couple, I used Minwax red mahogany #225 oil stain, which produces a pleasant dark reddish color similar to that which is found on many Mosins that come from the arsenals. The topcoats are always Tru-oil.
I have all '38 and '39 manufactures, except for one that is wartime. I hand-picked them for mint bores, with no counterbores. The tightest is .300/312, the loosest is .302/.313, and all of the rest are .301/.313. I get groups that are consistently under 2 minutes, with some Mosins.
I like the long pipes. They are relatively quiet, and have a real respectable sight radius.0 -
For real hunting, I would drill and tap the receiver, and modify or purchase a bolt to get scope clearance. I'd probably go with a 91/30 as they are cheap.
Make sure you pay attention to the bore condition and get one that's shiny with a good crown, and it should be at least a 3MOA rifle. More if you bed the receiever and use some good handloads.0
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