Savage 10ML-II Part-II
Friends,
in relation to this previous thread
quote:http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=624388
I have been watching this discussion, and now I am going to chime in.
First off, this idea for a muzzle loader, is one of the worst, accident waiting to happen, idea's invented. Because it looks like a rifle, shoots smokeless, nitrocellulose based powder, and loads like a muzzle loader, people get the idea, it can be treated like most cartridge rifles. Yes, that is right I said it, because it is a true fact, that most hunter's treat their weapons as tools, used but once a year, and then tossed back into the closet.
When you are burning something that hot to get that kind of performance, it has no other choice, but to atomize some plastic off from that sabot, and deposit it in the pores of that barrel. Its simple Physics 101, combined with a little chemistry. This plastic builds up, and eventually puts so much restriction on a fired sabot, it actually lets the bullet loose inside the barrel. Then when the sabot breaks loose, and catches up, the bullet acts like an obstruction...KABOOM.
No I don't buy that the powder flashes over itself and lites the charge on both ends. If that were so, it would happen just about every single shot, when using the Triple 7, or White Hot's, with the hole in the middle, to promote that very thing. Plus that bulge, and split are down the barrel, not in the chamber area.
Moral of the story, is to clean your muzzleloader better, especially if shooting sabots. You need to use some choke tube cleaner, that dissolves that plastic out of your bore. The main reason I do not use them, is that they are hard to clean up after.
BTW...the area where your barrel split, is where the heat and pressure would be the greatest, and have the most potential to atomize plastic.
Best
EDIT 1
quote:Wow!
I am the first person to read your explanation here?
Did you really tell us that a sabot (with an O.D. of something like 0.499" or so and weighing maybe 25 grains) is going to get stuck in the rifling of a 50 cal. muzzleloader, letting the bullet (with an O.D. of 0.451" or 0.452" and weighing 250 or 300 grains) keep going, then have sabot release from stuck position in rifling and then accelerate to the point where is catches the bullet that is moving so slowly that is causes an obstruction and you get - kaboom!? And all that in the first few inches of barrel?
You were saying this as a joke/test type thing, right?
No Sir, that was meant as the real deal. Think about it, when you want something to get grip on something else, you try to apply what material you are trying to grip to the other surface. Kind of like a drag strip...they coat the launching pad with a light dose of rubber cement, then do a burnout to get the tires hotter and stickier. Don't think that can, or does happen in a muzzle loader with sabots, and hot gas atomizing the plastic off them into the pores of your barrel? Don't fool yourself. That area in that muzzle loader, where the KABOOM is happening, is the point of the highest intensity of the burn, as that is smokeless powder, and by far the most probable area for this phenomena to happen. If you do not believe that sabots leave plastic in the barrel, try this...clean the barrel your way...then take a patch and thoroughly saturate it with choke tube cleaner like Rusty Duck. Swab the barrel, and let it set 5-10 minutes, and turn the muzzle toward the ground...you will emulsified plastic run out of the end of your barrel. That is from experience...been there, done it, and saw it.
An OD of 0.499", with a 0.452" bullet? You must be under the illusion that things do not expand when that kind of pressure and heat are applied to them.
Best
EDIT 2
quote:Sure, the sabot can leave plastic in the rifling. Agreed.
What isn't going to happen is the sabot stopping in that plastic that is in the rifling, restarting and then catching up to the bullet. As we all know, that bullet is going 2000 or 2300 fps trying to get out of the barrel, even if it doesn't have the sabot with it. Let that sabot lose even a hundred feet per second (let alone stop) & it'll never get close to that bullet again.
Even if the sabot could gain more velocity than the bullet (after separation), it has still lost distance & more importantly time(how many milliseconds from ignition to bullet exiting the barrel?). So even if the sabot magically attained 3000 fps and the bullet is only going 2300 fps, the sabot doesn't have the time or distance to catch the bullet.
Further, why would the sabot fly straight out of the barrel? Why wouldn't the very high pressure tilt that sabot base one way or the other and leak right past it? Take the bullet out of the sabot and you've only got a flimsy piece of plastic trying to hold back all that pressure. Of course if the sabot is bouncing around down the barrel, it'll be slowing down, not speeding up.
Sabot plastic in the rifling sure, but to me it is an irrelevant variable. I've never taken any extra effort to remove it and my Savage will hold MOA out to 200 yards.
Bash the Savage ML all you want, but I know you aren't talking from experience with one.
EDIT 2
I never said stop, I said restrict. All it has to do is "let the bullet loose". All the sabot has to do is temporarily slow down. Sabots are not exactly a new thing, and have been around for decades, commonly known as shotgun wads. Only difference, is the projectiles in a shotgun wad can move to relieve inconsistencies' in the bore, where in a muzzle loader, they are under pressure from one projectile, and cannot.
OK, we all know the 22LR travels from a rifle barrel, at around 1200FPS, which is much slower than the 2000-2300FPS for the Savage Muzzle loader, which you have stated. If you do not think it is possible for a sabot to catch back up, then try this on for size...there is a rifle, that can fire 5...that is right FIVE times, and have every one of those bullets in the barrel. The rifle is a Class 3, and is called the American 180. You must load the ammunition into the magazine, all from the same lot, for consistency in velocity. Any difference will ring the barrel, because there are 5 bullets traveling down that barrel at any given time. Still don't think it can happen with your righteous Savage in just one shot? The sabot has every chance in the world to catch back up, as it is lighter than the bullet, and now has more pressure on it. Plus the bullet is not accelerating anymore, it is still only in motion from momentum...the momentum it got from the initial blast...all the pressure is still on the sabot.
quote:Take the bullet out of the sabot and you've only got a flimsy piece of plastic trying to hold back all that pressure.
See there you even said it yourself.
You can let it be irrelevant if you want, but it is a very real thing. Kinda like the 17 HMR Semi-Auto's, when they start to get fouled...they are a ticking time bomb.
As for bashing your Savage...I don't have a horse in the race...its your face, and limbs, not mine...have at and ignore it, and you could be the next one sending yours in.
Best
in relation to this previous thread
quote:http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=624388
I have been watching this discussion, and now I am going to chime in.
First off, this idea for a muzzle loader, is one of the worst, accident waiting to happen, idea's invented. Because it looks like a rifle, shoots smokeless, nitrocellulose based powder, and loads like a muzzle loader, people get the idea, it can be treated like most cartridge rifles. Yes, that is right I said it, because it is a true fact, that most hunter's treat their weapons as tools, used but once a year, and then tossed back into the closet.
When you are burning something that hot to get that kind of performance, it has no other choice, but to atomize some plastic off from that sabot, and deposit it in the pores of that barrel. Its simple Physics 101, combined with a little chemistry. This plastic builds up, and eventually puts so much restriction on a fired sabot, it actually lets the bullet loose inside the barrel. Then when the sabot breaks loose, and catches up, the bullet acts like an obstruction...KABOOM.
No I don't buy that the powder flashes over itself and lites the charge on both ends. If that were so, it would happen just about every single shot, when using the Triple 7, or White Hot's, with the hole in the middle, to promote that very thing. Plus that bulge, and split are down the barrel, not in the chamber area.
Moral of the story, is to clean your muzzleloader better, especially if shooting sabots. You need to use some choke tube cleaner, that dissolves that plastic out of your bore. The main reason I do not use them, is that they are hard to clean up after.
BTW...the area where your barrel split, is where the heat and pressure would be the greatest, and have the most potential to atomize plastic.
Best
EDIT 1
quote:Wow!
I am the first person to read your explanation here?
Did you really tell us that a sabot (with an O.D. of something like 0.499" or so and weighing maybe 25 grains) is going to get stuck in the rifling of a 50 cal. muzzleloader, letting the bullet (with an O.D. of 0.451" or 0.452" and weighing 250 or 300 grains) keep going, then have sabot release from stuck position in rifling and then accelerate to the point where is catches the bullet that is moving so slowly that is causes an obstruction and you get - kaboom!? And all that in the first few inches of barrel?
You were saying this as a joke/test type thing, right?
No Sir, that was meant as the real deal. Think about it, when you want something to get grip on something else, you try to apply what material you are trying to grip to the other surface. Kind of like a drag strip...they coat the launching pad with a light dose of rubber cement, then do a burnout to get the tires hotter and stickier. Don't think that can, or does happen in a muzzle loader with sabots, and hot gas atomizing the plastic off them into the pores of your barrel? Don't fool yourself. That area in that muzzle loader, where the KABOOM is happening, is the point of the highest intensity of the burn, as that is smokeless powder, and by far the most probable area for this phenomena to happen. If you do not believe that sabots leave plastic in the barrel, try this...clean the barrel your way...then take a patch and thoroughly saturate it with choke tube cleaner like Rusty Duck. Swab the barrel, and let it set 5-10 minutes, and turn the muzzle toward the ground...you will emulsified plastic run out of the end of your barrel. That is from experience...been there, done it, and saw it.
An OD of 0.499", with a 0.452" bullet? You must be under the illusion that things do not expand when that kind of pressure and heat are applied to them.
Best
EDIT 2
quote:Sure, the sabot can leave plastic in the rifling. Agreed.
What isn't going to happen is the sabot stopping in that plastic that is in the rifling, restarting and then catching up to the bullet. As we all know, that bullet is going 2000 or 2300 fps trying to get out of the barrel, even if it doesn't have the sabot with it. Let that sabot lose even a hundred feet per second (let alone stop) & it'll never get close to that bullet again.
Even if the sabot could gain more velocity than the bullet (after separation), it has still lost distance & more importantly time(how many milliseconds from ignition to bullet exiting the barrel?). So even if the sabot magically attained 3000 fps and the bullet is only going 2300 fps, the sabot doesn't have the time or distance to catch the bullet.
Further, why would the sabot fly straight out of the barrel? Why wouldn't the very high pressure tilt that sabot base one way or the other and leak right past it? Take the bullet out of the sabot and you've only got a flimsy piece of plastic trying to hold back all that pressure. Of course if the sabot is bouncing around down the barrel, it'll be slowing down, not speeding up.
Sabot plastic in the rifling sure, but to me it is an irrelevant variable. I've never taken any extra effort to remove it and my Savage will hold MOA out to 200 yards.
Bash the Savage ML all you want, but I know you aren't talking from experience with one.
EDIT 2
I never said stop, I said restrict. All it has to do is "let the bullet loose". All the sabot has to do is temporarily slow down. Sabots are not exactly a new thing, and have been around for decades, commonly known as shotgun wads. Only difference, is the projectiles in a shotgun wad can move to relieve inconsistencies' in the bore, where in a muzzle loader, they are under pressure from one projectile, and cannot.
OK, we all know the 22LR travels from a rifle barrel, at around 1200FPS, which is much slower than the 2000-2300FPS for the Savage Muzzle loader, which you have stated. If you do not think it is possible for a sabot to catch back up, then try this on for size...there is a rifle, that can fire 5...that is right FIVE times, and have every one of those bullets in the barrel. The rifle is a Class 3, and is called the American 180. You must load the ammunition into the magazine, all from the same lot, for consistency in velocity. Any difference will ring the barrel, because there are 5 bullets traveling down that barrel at any given time. Still don't think it can happen with your righteous Savage in just one shot? The sabot has every chance in the world to catch back up, as it is lighter than the bullet, and now has more pressure on it. Plus the bullet is not accelerating anymore, it is still only in motion from momentum...the momentum it got from the initial blast...all the pressure is still on the sabot.
quote:Take the bullet out of the sabot and you've only got a flimsy piece of plastic trying to hold back all that pressure.
See there you even said it yourself.
You can let it be irrelevant if you want, but it is a very real thing. Kinda like the 17 HMR Semi-Auto's, when they start to get fouled...they are a ticking time bomb.
As for bashing your Savage...I don't have a horse in the race...its your face, and limbs, not mine...have at and ignore it, and you could be the next one sending yours in.
Best
0
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Wow!
I am the first person to read your explanation here?
Did you really tell us that a sabot (with an O.D. of something like 0.499" or so and weighing maybe 25 grains) is going to get stuck in the rifling of a 50 cal. muzzleloader, letting the bullet (with an O.D. of 0.451" or 0.452" and weighing 250 or 300 grains) keep going, then have sabot release from stuck position in rifling and then accelerate to the point where is catches the bullet that is moving so slowly that is causes an obstruction and you get - kaboom!? And all that in the first few inches of barrel?
You were saying this as a joke/test type thing, right?0 -
Several articles around about Savage muzzleloader barrel failures.
Have not seen any of the failures mentioned when using black powder type powders, but I could never trust one being fired in my hands after seeing multiple disastrous failures and no one knowing actually why. Savage will just indicate it's operator error.0 -
Sure, the sabot can leave plastic in the rifling. Agreed.
What isn't going to happen is the sabot stopping in that plastic that is in the rifling, restarting and then catching up to the bullet. As we all know, that bullet is going 2000 or 2300 fps trying to get out of the barrel, even if it doesn't have the sabot with it. Let that sabot lose even a hundred feet per second (let alone stop) & it'll never get close to that bullet again.
Even if the sabot could gain more velocity than the bullet (after separation), it has still lost distance & more importantly time(how many milliseconds from ignition to bullet exiting the barrel?). So even if the sabot magically attained 3000 fps and the bullet is only going 2300 fps, the sabot doesn't have the time or distance to catch the bullet.
Further, why would the sabot fly straight out of the barrel? Why wouldn't the very high pressure tilt that sabot base one way or the other and leak right past it? Take the bullet out of the sabot and you've only got a flimsy piece of plastic trying to hold back all that pressure. Of course if the sabot is bouncing around down the barrel, it'll be slowing down, not speeding up.
Sabot plastic in the rifling sure, but to me it is an irrelevant variable. I've never taken any extra effort to remove it and my Savage will hold MOA out to 200 yards.
Bash the Savage ML all you want, but I know you aren't talking from experience with one.0 -
The whole "sabot binds on melted plastic, slows down, then catches up with the slug which acts as an obstruction" thing, were it in fact true, would have shotguns that fire ammunition using a plastic shot cup exploding with monotonous regularity. Because the shot cup and shot would work exactly the same way as a plastic sabot (essentially a modified shot cup) and slug. Should I start hunting rabbits with a slingshot? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by firstharmonic
The whole "sabot binds on melted plastic, slows down, then catches up with the slug which acts as an obstruction" thing, were it in fact true, would have shotguns that fire ammunition using a plastic shot cup exploding with monotonous regularity. Because the shot cup and shot would work exactly the same way as a plastic sabot (essentially a modified shot cup) and slug. Should I start hunting rabbits with a slingshot?
The shot is not a solid projectile, and is afforded movement to relieve some inconsistencies. We are not talking as high a pressure, or temperature with shotguns either, and were more thought out than this great idea Savage had. I did mention that in one of my earlier posts', that the shot is afforded movement, and that sabots are a modification of shotgun wads, for a different application.
Best0 -
quote:Originally posted by KX500
Sure, the sabot can leave plastic in the rifling. Agreed.
What isn't going to happen is the sabot stopping in that plastic that is in the rifling, restarting and then catching up to the bullet. As we all know, that bullet is going 2000 or 2300 fps trying to get out of the barrel, even if it doesn't have the sabot with it. Let that sabot lose even a hundred feet per second (let alone stop) & it'll never get close to that bullet again.
Even if the sabot could gain more velocity than the bullet (after separation), it has still lost distance & more importantly time(how many milliseconds from ignition to bullet exiting the barrel?). So even if the sabot magically attained 3000 fps and the bullet is only going 2300 fps, the sabot doesn't have the time or distance to catch the bullet.
Further, why would the sabot fly straight out of the barrel? Why wouldn't the very high pressure tilt that sabot base one way or the other and leak right past it? Take the bullet out of the sabot and you've only got a flimsy piece of plastic trying to hold back all that pressure. Of course if the sabot is bouncing around down the barrel, it'll be slowing down, not speeding up.
Sabot plastic in the rifling sure, but to me it is an irrelevant variable. I've never taken any extra effort to remove it and my Savage will hold MOA out to 200 yards.
Bash the Savage ML all you want, but I know you aren't talking from experience with one.
No offense meant, but you must be either crazy or have a pair hanging down to your knees. Shooting one of the ML Savages with smokeless. The OP who started the original thread, wasn't the only person who had a similar catastrophic event with the Savage and smokeless. GOOGLE, "Savage 10ML" and any number of similar photos/reports show up. Personally I think JONK nailed it, with his secondary explosion event theory. Savage is going to have to drop them like a hot potato, if they want to keep the bottom feeding liability lawyers off their backs.0 -
reminds me of BUBBA hold my beer and watch this[:0] Or the red line on the tack. is just a suggestion they have a 205 OVER REV. SAFETY BUILT IN AND RELOADING MANUALS ARE THE SAME WAY A 505 overload is less than proof rounds so it won't blow up[V][:(!]A fool and his life may soon be parted. 0 -
Well TSR I will have to say that you do seem very confident in your theory and I have been wrong many times (& sadly will be again, many more times).
If you are right, it would sure seem like a waste to have the solution die away on some old thread on GunBroker.
I would think the next step would be to contact Savage, wouldn't you?
While you're at it, contact Bad Bull Muzzleloaders and DSS Custom Guns - they both make smokeless muzzloaders too. There are probably others.
There are also companies (to numerous to list) who will convert your bolt action rifle or factory barrel to a smokeless muzzleloader barrel by adding a breech plug etc. (apparently a .45-70 barrel is a good place to start).
There are probably a dozen or so companies guilty of this terrible smokeless powder muzzleloading idea - couldn't even guess how many thousands of these guns are out there.
Don't let your solution die here on GB - get it off the net & out into the real world.
Please keep us posted.0 -
All I can do is speculate as to why it happened, I'm not an engineer. Savage took pic's and said they would get in touch with me. And as for this being a "Bubba" hold my beer and watch this moment, I don't
drink! I did post here to get info from experts and it got locked I was not bashing Savage, just trying to get answers. I thing it has something to do with the sabot they don't sit in the cup flush with the bottom you have to push it and when you let the pressure off it rides up the other combinations of sabot TC and Barns for BP the round sits flush to it's base with out forcing it down if you understand what I'm saying.0 -
quote:Originally posted by cannon hands
All I can do is speculate as to why it happened, I'm not an engineer. Savage took pic's and said they would get in touch with me. And as for this being a "Bubba" hold my beer and watch this moment, I don't
drink! I did post here to get info from experts and it got locked I was not bashing Savage, just trying to get answers. I thing it has something to do with the sabot they don't sit in the cup flush with the bottom you have to push it and when you let the pressure off it rides up the other combinations of sabot TC and Barns for BP the round sits flush to it's base with out forcing it down if you understand what I'm saying.
CANNONHANDS;
Your handle (name) now fits and I've just got to ask:
Not sure I understand what you are saying? If I remember correctly the mmp High pressure sabot you mention is the type that Savage recommends for use with their gun. Are you going to get another Savage muzzleloader and test your theory AGAIN with a different bullet/sabot combo after you heal or befoe you heal?
you might need to change your name from cannonhands (plural) to hand (single, one hand) if your theory is not correct.
Respectfully;0
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