ARSENAL SGL 21
Would this Arsenal SGL21 be worth $1000. Stamped on the receiver: Legion Trade Izhvesk Russia. Arsenal Las Vegas, NV USA. It looks mint with only 200 rounds through it. Comes with original Black poly handguard and stock, as well as Tapco adjustable stock and tactical handguard with rail. (5) 30 round mags. Ive seen new SGL21-61's go for $1000 on up from the FIME. If I could attach a pic I would, but it looks like any all black russian made gun. Im just trying to make sure pulling the trigger is on an AK for this much is worth it. I know they are great guns, but just checking to see what some of you think. Thanks for your help.
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$1000 seems top dollar plus, for any AK variant to me. A year ago when things were crazy, maybe? Not now, IMHO.
Check the completed auctions on this site, for current fair market values. So many home built AK's are floating around. The prices of even the top of the lines models, have been affected.
No matter what's stamped on the receiver I don't believe it came out of Russia in AK configuration. Probably was imported as a Saiga type sporter. Then was reworked in the States to look like a AK.0 -
When I picked up my Bulgarian SLR 95 here on GB a few years ago they were selling for $1200. I didn't pay anywhere near that because the seller messed up on his auction. I imagine the prices are still up there considering their getting $600 for the Century guns. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow
$1000 seems top dollar plus, for any AK variant to me. A year ago when things were crazy, maybe? Not now, IMHO.
Check the completed auctions on this site, for current fair market values. So many home built AK's are floating around. The prices of even the top of the lines models, have been affected.
No matter what's stamped on the receiver I don't believe it came out of Russia in AK configuration. Probably was imported as a Saiga type sporter. Then was reworked in the States to look like a AK.
Doesnt Arsenal actually rework all AK's they import, when they imported them. I know FIME does it now. The gun I was thinking of buying has the brochure and they go together and theyre identical. Gun looks like all Saiga and Bulgarian SLR's Ive seen. So the SGL21-61 KVAR sells for $1050 does not come to the states looking like that? What about the FIME SGL's? Do they come to the states looking like the AK or are they a sporter? Im just trying to figure out what AK's are top of the line and what isnt.
Looks identical to this gun. http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=390977874
Thanks.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bgriff000
quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow
$1000 seems top dollar plus, for any AK variant to me. A year ago when things were crazy, maybe? Not now, IMHO.
Check the completed auctions on this site, for current fair market values. So many home built AK's are floating around. The prices of even the top of the lines models, have been affected.
No matter what's stamped on the receiver I don't believe it came out of Russia in AK configuration. Probably was imported as a Saiga type sporter. Then was reworked in the States to look like a AK.
Doesnt Arsenal actually rework all AK's they import, when they imported them. I know FIME does it now. The gun I was thinking of buying has the brochure and they go together and theyre identical. Gun looks like all Saiga and Bulgarian SLR's Ive seen. So the SGL21-61 KVAR sells for $1050 does not come to the states looking like that? What about the FIME SGL's? Do they come to the states looking like the AK or are they a sporter? Im just trying to figure out what AK's are top of the line and what isnt.
Thanks.
I don't believe that any AK has been imported, since the Bush ban of the late 80's. They have to be brought in as sporters, like the Saiga. Then reworked into AK configuration, with the required number of U.S. made parts.0 -
quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow
I don't believe that any AK has been imported, since the Bush ban of the late 80's. They have to be brought in as sporters, like the Saiga. Then reworked into AK configuration, with the required number of U.S. made parts.
I think this is correct.
All "new" AKs are either brought in as sporting guns (eg Saigas) then modified/rebuilt into AK-pattern guns, or alternatively built using imported parts (typically from demilled used guns) onto American made receivers. Given the two options, if done correctly, the former typically leads to better guns, because the Russian-built Saigas actually start off with high build and parts quality.
In the last few years the BATFE (artibrarily) banned importation of parts kits with intact barrels, thereby making it quite a bit harder to build AK pattern guns from kits, also significantly decreasing the supply of functional kits, and increasing the cost of these builds.
Also, while lots of American made "compliance" type parts are available, including receivers and barrels, I believe you still can't get ALL the parts made domestically. Consequently nobody is making a "100% American" AK pattern gun.0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow
I don't believe that any AK has been imported, since the Bush ban of the late 80's. They have to be brought in as sporters, like the Saiga. Then reworked into AK configuration, with the required number of U.S. made parts.
I think this is correct.
All "new" AKs are either brought in as sporting guns (eg Saigas) then modified/rebuilt into AK-pattern guns, or alternatively built using imported parts (typically from demilled used guns) onto American made receivers. Given the two options, if done correctly, the former typically leads to better guns, because the Russian-built Saigas actually start off with high build and parts quality.
In the last few years the BATFE (artibrarily) banned importation of parts kits with intact barrels, thereby making it quite a bit harder to build AK pattern guns from kits, also significantly decreasing the supply of functional kits, and increasing the cost of these builds.
Also, while lots of American made "compliance" type parts are available, including receivers and barrels, I believe you still can't get ALL the parts made domestically. Consequently nobody is making a "100% American" AK pattern gun.
Ahhhhh, I gotcha. Thats right, the AK's that Arsenal would get would come in as sporters, then they would make them look like AK's while adding enough US parts to make them compliant. Then added a Chrome lined cold Forged Barrel and stamp Arsenal on the side. So really I should just buy a Saiga Sporter for half the price and add the AK style furniture to it and make it look the same. Might not have the Chrome Forged barrel, but it will look identical. All this talk is making me second guess buying the Arsenal SGL I found for sale. They do look cool though.
Thanks.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bgriff000
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
quote:Originally posted by rufe-snow
I don't believe that any AK has been imported, since the Bush ban of the late 80's. They have to be brought in as sporters, like the Saiga. Then reworked into AK configuration, with the required number of U.S. made parts.
I think this is correct.
All "new" AKs are either brought in as sporting guns (eg Saigas) then modified/rebuilt into AK-pattern guns, or alternatively built using imported parts (typically from demilled used guns) onto American made receivers. Given the two options, if done correctly, the former typically leads to better guns, because the Russian-built Saigas actually start off with high build and parts quality.
In the last few years the BATFE (artibrarily) banned importation of parts kits with intact barrels, thereby making it quite a bit harder to build AK pattern guns from kits, also significantly decreasing the supply of functional kits, and increasing the cost of these builds.
Also, while lots of American made "compliance" type parts are available, including receivers and barrels, I believe you still can't get ALL the parts made domestically. Consequently nobody is making a "100% American" AK pattern gun.
Ahhhhh, I gotcha. Thats right, the AK's that Arsenal would get would come in as sporters, then they would make them look like AK's while adding enough US parts to make them compliant. Then added a Chrome lined cold Forged Barrel and stamp Arsenal on the side. So really I should just buy a Saiga Sporter for half the price and add the AK style furniture to it and make it look the same. Might not have the Chrome Forged barrel, but it will look identical. All this talk is making me second guess buying the Arsenal SGL I found for sale. They do look cool though.
Thanks.
IIRC you must move the trigger group of a Saiga forward to put a US pistol grip in the correct place. And have enough compliance parts.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bgriff000
Ahhhhh, I gotcha. Thats right, the AK's that Arsenal would get would come in as sporters, then they would make them look like AK's while adding enough US parts to make them compliant. Then added a Chrome lined cold Forged Barrel and stamp Arsenal on the side. So really I should just buy a Saiga Sporter for half the price and add the AK style furniture to it and make it look the same. Might not have the Chrome Forged barrel, but it will look identical. All this talk is making me second guess buying the Arsenal SGL I found for sale. They do look cool though.
No, its quite a bit more complicated than that.
Saigas have differently located trigger guards and IIRC, the magazines aren't the same either (though you can always use Saiga magazines in your conversion later, if you like). A true Saiga-to-AK conversion is quite doable, but its a lot more labor intensive and complicated than just switching out furniture (eg you have to drill the receiver, for one thing).
Exactly how to do it is beyond the scope of this post, but you can google "Saiga conversion" if you want to learn more about what's involved. I think if you factor in the costs of the Saiga rifle, the costs of getting the compliance parts, the value of your time, you'll see that the savings of doing a conversion yourself, aren't quite as great as you might think. You'll save some money, I think, and you'll definitely get a greater appreciation for your gun and working knowledge of its guts by doing this, but this isn't a "two for one" type of deal.0 -
quote:Originally posted by beantownshootah
quote:Originally posted by bgriff000
Ahhhhh, I gotcha. Thats right, the AK's that Arsenal would get would come in as sporters, then they would make them look like AK's while adding enough US parts to make them compliant. Then added a Chrome lined cold Forged Barrel and stamp Arsenal on the side. So really I should just buy a Saiga Sporter for half the price and add the AK style furniture to it and make it look the same. Might not have the Chrome Forged barrel, but it will look identical. All this talk is making me second guess buying the Arsenal SGL I found for sale. They do look cool though.
No, its quite a bit more complicated than that.
Saigas have differently located trigger guards and IIRC, the magazines aren't the same either (though you can always use Saiga magazines in your conversion later, if you like). A true Saiga-to-AK conversion is quite doable, but its a lot more labor intensive and complicated than just switching out furniture (eg you have to drill the receiver, for one thing).
Exactly how to do it is beyond the scope of this post, but you can google "Saiga conversion" if you want to learn more about what's involved. I think if you factor in the costs of the Saiga rifle, the costs of getting the compliance parts, the value of your time, you'll see that the savings of doing a conversion yourself, aren't quite as great as you might think. You'll save some money, I think, and you'll definitely get a greater appreciation for your gun and working knowledge of its guts by doing this, but this isn't a "two for one" type of deal.
The Saiga comes with a Chrome lined barrel.
If Ed and Austin can convert a Saiga to use standard AK mags using power drills, so can you.
Part 1http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waj8aLz-xY4
Part 2http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HOedStH-t4
Part 3http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY69yqblMwM0
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