Savage 10ML-11 KABOOM
Catastrophic failure, I still have my right hand I sustained a broken thumb and 5 stitches. whats left of the rifle will go back to Savage for them to evaluate what happened, I followed all the instructions provided in the Manual to the letter. Thursday I shot 12 rounds through it Friday I shot 8 and the 9th went KABOOM!I was using IMR SR 4759 43.0 Gn. and Horandy XTP 300 Gn.with MMP sabots. Any input appreciated also how do I post pic's on here?
Cannon Hands
Cannon Hands
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Pic posting help from the sticky above
http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=259294
My guess your sabot backed off the charge.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_accuracy_loads.htm
I think the phenomena is the sabots are slick. Air pressure is built up behind the sabot when ramming it home. This can be relived by leaving the cap and hammer off the nipple for traditional ML and what ever it takes for in-lines to leave a vent open so the sabot stays put against the charge.
Glad you weren't hurt bad.
Small charges of modern gunpowder usually slow single base 1/3 case full of 4831 in is a good example.0 -
Other folks have had the same problem(s). With the Savages and smokeless powder. Years back when I was into 19th Century BP military rifles. I use to use 4759 for smokeless equivalent loads. As I recall the loads were 23 +_ 2 grains, approximately? It's been many years, so I might be off?
This photo is from Google, it just one of the many showing blown-up Savage 10ML's.0 -
Well that's something I didn't think of I did have to pinch the sabots with my fingers to keep the rounds in contact with the base of the sabots upon starting them in the muzzle. Each round was seated with my range rod and checked with the supplied rod that I put a witness mark on with my first loading. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
Pic posting help from the sticky above
http://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=259294
My guess your sabot backed off the charge.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/savage_accuracy_loads.htm
Thanks0 -
I don't think that's the issue exactly. That might be the issue if it were real black powder- an air space between powder and bullet- but with smokeless, that's not an issue. Just consider the air space in a rifle case for instance. Even Col. Julian Hatcher noted that to clear an obstructed bore, i.e. a bullet lodged halfway down, you could simply load a case with powder and no bullet in it, and fire it out. Because smokeless works that way.
Personally, I think that what is happening is, since the sabot doesn't require much force to start it moving down the barrel- unlike a rifle bullet engraving the lands at the throat- the terrific bang of the shotgun primer is moving the entire powder/bullet column forward on going off; and the powder, being a propellant and not an explosive that goes off instantly (like black) then begins to burn. Except it has already started to burn. In other words, some of the powder in the rear of the charge has ignited int he 'blow forward' phase, while the jet of flame shoots over the top of the now dislodged powder, igniting the top and front of the charge as well. Those two wave fronts meet, and BOOM. Classic SEE (Secondary explosion effect).
This isn't markedly different from what happens in a regular muzzleloader going boom, though in my mind at least, the mechanics are a bit different.0 -
Thank you guy's for your input,I'm bringing it back to them today hopefully they can give a definitive explanation. The gunsmith I brought it to yesterday said it became over pressurized but he could not say why or what caused it just that it was a product failure. And I was lucky. This situation has me second guessing my self.
I will update when I get more info from savage.
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Well, I just got back from Savage I was told by Atty. not to leave it with them but let them inspect it and take pic's which I did and it did not make them happy. The customer service guy felt they had enough pic's to let there engineering dpt. make a determination and they will contact me. Time will tell? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by cannon hands
Well, I just got back from Savage I was told by Atty. not to leave it with them but let them inspect it and take pic's which I did and it did not make them happy. The customer service guy felt they had enough pic's to let there engineering dpt. make a determination and they will contact me. Time will tell?
I believe that JONK has it nailed, with the Secondary Explosion theory. Unfortunately from the photos and comments on the net. Others have had the same thing happen.
It doesn't look good as far as Savage is concerned. They are in deep dodo for selling a ML specifically for smokeless powder. That self destructs and injures folks. Even if they follow Savage's users manual.0 -
I have two of these muzzleloaders & am convinced that they are the best muzzleloader ever mass produced. They are so good as to make muzzleloading almost boring - there isn't a need to look for a better muzzleloader next year or the year after, 'cause I sure don't know what it would be. Use of a black powder substitute over smokeless? Why, unless you love the smoke and cleaning the gun every time you shoot it? Accuracy on these is amazing as is ease of use. Have shot hundreds of bullets out of mine with no issues (other than a little barrel warming on warm days - like many guns). And what happens when you exceed the max powder load by a few grains? All the powder doesn't burn and is left behind in the barrel. Didn't even kick harder - Boring.
What happened to this gun? Who knows. I do know from personal experience that it isn't hard to double load a muzzleloader. Heaven help you if your phone rings or there is some other distraction while your loading your muzzleloader - (I'm pretty sure there is only one powder charge & bullet in there, but.....?). I realized a long time ago that about 9 times out of 10, when there is a problem with something I've been messing with, or working on or using, the origin of the problem is me - human error.
And I bet that will be what Savage says too. What are the odds of a defective barrel vrs. human error? If it can be proven that Savage is at fault, then I hope you get something out of them. But I also think that Savage is one of the best firearms manufacturers out there and sure don't want them to decide that selling firearms isn't profitable enough due to litigation costs.
And I've always felt that T/C especially and maybe other muzzleloader manufacturers love negative Savage ML publicity. Even if T/C ever wanted to offer a smokless muzzleloader, they can't because they've always said what a terrible idea it is. Maybe if they'd have thought of it first....0 -
Thanks for your response, I'm not looking to bash savage I have owned several weapons made by them. I was quite impressed with the grouping that I got at 100 yd.using this gun not sub moa but close.I do think this is capable of consistent sub moa accuracy once dialed in. Something went wrong and hopefully they will have an answer. quote:Originally posted by KX500
I have two of these muzzleloaders & am convinced that they are the best muzzleloader ever mass produced. They are so good as to make muzzleloading almost boring - there isn't a need to look for a better muzzleloader next year or the year after, 'cause I sure don't know what it would be. Use of a black powder substitute over smokeless? Why, unless you love the smoke and cleaning the gun every time you shoot it? Accuracy on these is amazing as is ease of use. Have shot hundreds of bullets out of mine with no issues (other than a little barrel warming on warm days - like many guns). And what happens when you exceed the max powder load by a few grains? All the powder doesn't burn and is left behind in the barrel. Didn't even kick harder - Boring.
What happened to this gun? Who knows. I do know from personal experience that it isn't hard to double load a muzzleloader. Heaven help you if your phone rings or there is some other distraction while your loading your muzzleloader - (I'm pretty sure there is only one powder charge & bullet in there, but.....?). I realized a long time ago that about 9 times out of 10, when there is a problem with something I've been messing with, or working on or using, the origin of the problem is me - human error.
And I bet that will be what Savage says too. What are the odds of a defective barrel vrs. human error? If it can be proven that Savage is at fault, then I hope you get something out of them. But I also think that Savage is one of the best firearms manufacturers out there and sure don't want them to decide that selling firearms isn't profitable enough due to litigation costs.
And I've always felt that T/C especially and maybe other muzzleloader manufacturers love negative Savage ML publicity. Even if T/C ever wanted to offer a smokless muzzleloader, they can't because they've always said what a terrible idea it is. Maybe if they'd have thought of it first....0
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