M1 Carbine Stock USGI or Repro?
I met with a local guy last week to look at a M14 he was selling at what seemed to be a fair price ($1000), however, I wasn't quite ready to cough up the capitol and he ended up selling it. He was one of the smart ones who bought a lot of milsurps cheap in the 80's and as he started selling his collection, saw nice gains. Now it seems like he has a handful (or 2 handfuls) left. I have seen pictures of the guns he's recently sold (M14, M1 Garand, some mausers, MAS, etc) and theyre all really nice and legitimate candidates for serious collector pieces.
He remembered me telling him that the only Military gun Ive ever wanted was a m-1 carbine, and I was lucky enough last year to find a nice Fed Ord. one thats a great shooter and all I could ever ask for.
He came to me the other day with a Paratrooper stock, hip case, double mag pouch and 2 15 round mags. He said that they were unissued USGI originals, and that the stock was never on a gun. Probably just being in gradeschool when he bought these I have no knowledge of the kind of great deals they had at gun shows in the 70s-80s, but it seems possible these can be what he said they were. I am not looking to make my M-1 a $2000+ piece, but it would be something neat to have if I wanted to dress up my carbine one day, even better to say that they are originals! His price was $200 and said that it will definitely up the value of my gun. That's all great, but my m1 is not something I ever plan on parting with, and if I can get the same setup (being a repro) for $175-$250 any day of the week, then its not something I need to buy right now. Can someone tell me what I am looking at in regards to the information below? I could care less about the case and mag pouch, and am just concerned with the stock.
I know I do not have very detailed pictures, as I just took what he sent me and didn't pry for detailed pictures as I don't want to loose a deal, so bare with my description, as I have seen it in person, but I am not 100% sure it is a repro or that it is a original.
Pics:
-I believe I saw a "IO" on the inside of the stock towards where the trigger would be
- I also think there was a "6" or "9" where the barrel would sit.
- There was no "P" on the sides , or at least not plainly visible
-there was an "RI-3" on the bottom of the pistol grip
- The stock definitely did not see any use, or it was possibly refinished
- The wire stock was parkerized/ was a dull green/grey
- the leather fit really nice and rivets looked correct and solid, not like the ugly round ones. The Rivets were a dull brass with slight oxidation and did have "7/4" on them
- The inside of the butt plate looked like it had "P237614" on it (raised, not imprinted), but no "wagon wheel" or number after it.
I'm thinking if its the real McCoy, its the 2nd variation, which may explain the low wood, absence of a (P) on the stock, the 7/4 on the rivets. But this is going off of what I've researched online. One of the Mags had "KI" on it, and the other said "AI" (which is know is inland). The scabbard says US on the outside flap and some canvas company on the inside of the flap. The stock functions as it should and has no damage. There is no handguard in this package.
Pages I have relied on for most pertinent information.
http://ww2.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=15866,DATABASE=objects
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/35353/M1-Carbine-Paratrooper-authentication-help-needed-ASAP#.Ut9DiV4o7H2
He remembered me telling him that the only Military gun Ive ever wanted was a m-1 carbine, and I was lucky enough last year to find a nice Fed Ord. one thats a great shooter and all I could ever ask for.
He came to me the other day with a Paratrooper stock, hip case, double mag pouch and 2 15 round mags. He said that they were unissued USGI originals, and that the stock was never on a gun. Probably just being in gradeschool when he bought these I have no knowledge of the kind of great deals they had at gun shows in the 70s-80s, but it seems possible these can be what he said they were. I am not looking to make my M-1 a $2000+ piece, but it would be something neat to have if I wanted to dress up my carbine one day, even better to say that they are originals! His price was $200 and said that it will definitely up the value of my gun. That's all great, but my m1 is not something I ever plan on parting with, and if I can get the same setup (being a repro) for $175-$250 any day of the week, then its not something I need to buy right now. Can someone tell me what I am looking at in regards to the information below? I could care less about the case and mag pouch, and am just concerned with the stock.
I know I do not have very detailed pictures, as I just took what he sent me and didn't pry for detailed pictures as I don't want to loose a deal, so bare with my description, as I have seen it in person, but I am not 100% sure it is a repro or that it is a original.
Pics:
-I believe I saw a "IO" on the inside of the stock towards where the trigger would be
- I also think there was a "6" or "9" where the barrel would sit.
- There was no "P" on the sides , or at least not plainly visible
-there was an "RI-3" on the bottom of the pistol grip
- The stock definitely did not see any use, or it was possibly refinished
- The wire stock was parkerized/ was a dull green/grey
- the leather fit really nice and rivets looked correct and solid, not like the ugly round ones. The Rivets were a dull brass with slight oxidation and did have "7/4" on them
- The inside of the butt plate looked like it had "P237614" on it (raised, not imprinted), but no "wagon wheel" or number after it.
I'm thinking if its the real McCoy, its the 2nd variation, which may explain the low wood, absence of a (P) on the stock, the 7/4 on the rivets. But this is going off of what I've researched online. One of the Mags had "KI" on it, and the other said "AI" (which is know is inland). The scabbard says US on the outside flap and some canvas company on the inside of the flap. The stock functions as it should and has no damage. There is no handguard in this package.
Pages I have relied on for most pertinent information.
http://ww2.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=15866,DATABASE=objects
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/topic/35353/M1-Carbine-Paratrooper-authentication-help-needed-ASAP#.Ut9DiV4o7H2
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I don't see the point? As long as it's a Fed Ord carbine, what difference does it make. I can see questioning it, if you had the correct GI carbine for the stock. As long as it's a Fed Ord, put it on. What do you have to lose? I agree it will increase the Fed Ords value, substantially.
Gun Show commandos would go crazy. If you walked into a show with the Fed Ord, with the para stock. You would have guys following you around, trying to buy it off your back.0 -
I have an October 1943 made Inland para and it's my understanding the para and conventional stock version were made side by side - all Inlands, all made during a certain time frame. If the stock is original would removing the Federal Ordnance & dropping in a late '43 made Inland early type be considered cheating? 0 -
I think were off topic a little, haha...Regardless of what gun its going on, I wanted to know if the stock is the real deal or is a repro 0 -
I don't think that we can "authenticate" anything from out-of-focus cell phone photos.
I think it might be a USGI M1A1 stock, but it has been heavily sanded. I suspect that it may be from a shipment of beat up stocks imported from Italy about 10-15 years ago. At $200, you are risking nothing.
Neal
"Believe nothing that you hear, & only half of what you see."
EDIT: There are variations of the hand grip, & variations in markings. OI (Overton/Inland) inside the stock is a good indication of a USGI stock, as is RI/3 (Royal Typewriters) on the bottom of the grip. The grip should have "cross cannons", even if arsenal refinished. And, there should be a proof P. Even heavily refinished by Bubba, a genuine USGI stock is worth far more than any repro.0 -
Thankyou for the help. This was deffinitely not purchased in the the last 2 decades, this fella probably hasnt bought anything gun related since .22s were $7 a brick from what I gather from our hours of talking.
Does it being sanded ruin most value as a usgi? While just maintainig the quality? Or is it something that is deffinitely worth more than a repro?
Sorry about the pictures, I was hoping that you would get more from my description, but figurd Id throw them in.0 -
Thankyou for the help. This was deffinitely not purchased in the the last 2 decades, this fella probably hasnt bought anything gun related since .22s were $7 a brick from what I gather from our hours of talking.
Does it being sanded ruin most value as a usgi? While just maintainig the quality? Or is it something that is deffinitely worth more than a repro?
Sorry about the pictures, I was hoping that you would get more from my description, but figurd Id throw them in.0 -
There is a cottage industry in faking all parts to US Carbines....and the para Carbine is considered the "holy grail" of carbines by many, so I would be careful. It all depends on how much you believe the story told by this guy as to the stuffs authenticity. If he got the stuff 40 years ago it is probably the real deal. How about the "other" stuff like the hip case? The real deal of that is also quite valuable by itself but your photos are so blurry can't tell maker or date. So it depends but if he is right, an original M1 Carbine hip case is worth more than the total amount he is asking for the entire lot. If the stuff is fake you can get them all for about half of what he is asking. 0 -
Whats an indication of the hip case being genuine? I figured that since it came with sn inland mag, the stock may just as well be genuine as well. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by PBking51
Whats an indication of the hip case being genuine? I figured that since it came with sn inland mag, the stock may just as well be genuine as well.
PBking51.....the fakes uaually look too "new" compared to the real deal. But then I have known those that "age" them and sell them as the real deal. Also, you can check the maker and I see that you have blur on the inside of the flap which is most likely the maker. There also might be a date on it. The quality of the snaps is also a giveaway. If you had a real one beside a fake you can usually tell in a heartbeat. But it goes back to the guy and the timeframe he says he got the stuff. If one thing is fake, it damages the entire lot IMO....but if the case is the real deal I would tend to believe that the entire lot is real and at that price it is a STEAL.0 -
From your description I would say it's a repro. Very close, but no cigar. 0 -
I remeber the flap saying "............ Canvas Company" ...from that does it scream fake or not?
As far as the snaps go, anything specific i should look for?
Im concerned with the butt plate starting with what looks close to a "P" and not s traditonal P...the letters are raised however, so maybe the wheel and last number got worn off? In that case, I imagine the wood was refinished.0 -
Come back with some much better quality and more detailed photos and then open up a part II on this subject. 0
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