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"Straw Man" Question

Ambrose
I was considering buying a friend a handgun as a gift. Could I, without running afoul of the BATF rules, buy a gun on the auction side, send payment and my dealers FFL, and then have my friend do the 4473 and pick up the gun?

EDIT: Question #1 on 4473 (if I remember correctly) "are you the actual buyer", not owner.
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10 comments

Date Votes
  • swearengine
    yes, since he would be the actual owner.

    Edit: it does say buyer, but, you are allowed to purchase for someone else that is not otherwise prohibited from owning and he/she fills out the 4473.

    If you filled out the form and then gave it to him it would still be allowed as long as he is not otherwise prohibited from purchasing. It would only be illegal if you bought it, filled out the form, gave it to him, and he was a felon.
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  • JIM STARK
    ^^^^^^^^^
    +1
    JIM...............
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  • beantownshootah
    quote:Originally posted by Ambrose
    I was considering buying a friend a handgun as a gift. Could I, without running afoul of the BATF rules, buy a gun on the auction side, send payment and my dealers FFL, and then have my friend do the 4473 and pick up the gun?

    EDIT: Question #1 on 4473 (if I remember correctly) "are you the actual buyer", not owner.



    Absolutely you can, and this is the way to do it.

    Question 11s says:
    Are you the actual transferee/buyer of this firearm?

    If the guy filling out the form is the one who is going to end up with the gun, then the answer is "yes" and you don't have a problem.

    Obviously, you should probably discuss this with the FFL holder in advance so that they know you're buying a gun for someone else, when it arrives to your attention. You don't want to look like you're trying to do anything "funny" at the transfer!

    Also, might want to make sure your friend actually CAN pass the 4473 check before doing this. That might be awfully embarrassing for both of you, if for some reason unknown to you, that he can't and you put him in a position where he's going to fail the check or can't get the gun.


    Edit: The above is ONE way to do it. According to the 4473 instructions on question 11a, apparently you can legally buy a gun using your own money, then gift it to someone else later. . .so long as THAT person is legally entitled to own it. State law also has to permit this. . .intrastate gun transfers like this are not legal in every state.
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  • nmyers
    It is not "a felony conviction" that makes one ineligible, it is "conviction of a crime for which the penalty could be > 1 year imprisonment". In at least 1 state, some misdemeanors carry a penalty of up to 6 years imprisonment.

    To avoid possibly embarrassment or misunderstanding, I would buy the gun for myself, wrap it up, & present it to the friend. Then I would immediately tell the friend, "Before I actually give it to you, first we need to go down to Joe's Gun Shop, so that he can do the legal transfer." If he knows of "problems" in his past, he then can tell you, "Thank you, but that is gift is too expensive; I can't possibly accept it."

    Neal

    EDIT: Well, Nunn would probably tell Enrique Marquez that he's a Nervous Nellie; he bought the guns legally, he legally sold them to his friend, so, what does he have to worry about?

    Nervous Neal
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  • David Nunn
    Nervous Nellies abound.

    Buying a gun as a gift for a person not prohibited from receiving it is not a straw man transfer.

    State laws notwithstanding, there are two ways to handle it.

    1. Fill out the 4473 yourself. You are the "actual buyer," so answer the first question "Yes." Now, you own it. You can do what you will with your property, including to give it to a friend. So, give it to your friend. This presumes that your state does not require face-to-face transfers to be recorded.

    2. Pay for the gun, tell your friend about it, and let him go to the dealer and complete the 4473 himself. This method probably works better for the nervous types.

    In both cases, Federal law still prohibits the transfer of firearms to certain classes of persons. But if the recipient is your friend, you should know whether he is ineligible.
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  • Horse Plains Drifter
    nunn knows how it works.
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  • Herschel
    Neal,

    The statue of limitations may have run on the purchase and transfer of the guns to the terrorist. We will see how that plays out.
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  • Horse Plains Drifter
    quote:Originally posted by nmyers


    EDIT: Well, Nunn would probably tell Enrique Marquez that he's a Nervous Nellie; he bought the guns legally, he legally sold them to his friend, so, what does he have to worry about?

    Nervous Neal
    And transfering them on a 4473 would have?
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  • competentone
    quote:Originally posted by nunn
    Nervous Nellies abound.

    Buying a gun as a gift for a person not prohibited from receiving it is not a straw man transfer.

    State laws notwithstanding, there are two ways to handle it.

    1. Fill out the 4473 yourself. You are the "actual buyer," so answer the first question "Yes." Now, you own it. You can do what you will with your property, including to give it to a friend. So, give it to your friend. This presumes that your state does not require face-to-face transfers to be recorded.

    2. Pay for the gun, tell your friend about it, and let him go to the dealer and complete the 4473 himself. This method probably works better for the nervous types.

    In both cases, Federal law still prohibits the transfer of firearms to certain classes of persons. But if the recipient is your friend, you should know whether he is ineligible.



    The ATF has argued successfully (in at least one court case) the point of their argument being: that any purchase for someone else is a "straw sale."

    For decades, it was considered to be very clear that a "straw sale" was the purchase of a firearm for someone who had a firearm disability and could not legally purchase one himself. That is now no longer clearly the case.

    Many dealers don't want to see any hint that the person filling out the 4473 Form might be a straw purchasers. So it could be problem if the OP has "paid for the gun" then sends his friend to fill out the 4473.

    The safest way, in today's uncertain legal environment in this area, is to give your friend a "gun money" gift. He can then go with that money in his pocket and purchase the firearm you suggested he'd like.
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  • yoshmyster
    I went and did the paper work for three AR recievers today. The goofy ass state of California deems all stripped AR recievers as "rifles" so one would think any 18 year old can pick one up. Not so. Since the state think folks can make pistols out of them (which is illegal) so they state one has to be 21 to buy them.

    My intention was to gift them as high school graduation gifts (two graduated last year) but they won't get them until they're 21 or never if 2016 is another year where stripped ARs lowers will be priced as $300 [:D]. The way I see it I bought them for me to do as I see fit with in the silly laws.
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