H&R SxS 410-44 info please -
Gents - I've had this one for awhile now -
Seeking any info regarding it please - She is 2.5" chamber -
Seeking any info regarding it please - She is 2.5" chamber -
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The forerunner of the 410. Was a cartridge known as the 44 XL. My WAG is that the shotgun was originally chambered for the 44 XL. When the 410 became popular. It was opened up to take the 410.
I don't know if H & R would have marked the shotgun that way. But perhaps it's a transition gun. That they made when the 410 started to be more popular than the 44 XL?0 -
That is a beauty. I'll give you $50 and even pay the shipping. [:p]
We have discussed this caliber a few times around here. Would wager that is NOT a remark of caliber- but a later production gun. As said, grew out of the 44-40 shot load, later the 44 XL shot load. Just because a 2.5 inch .410 shell fits does NOT mean that is a 2.5 inch chamber- the first .410s were 2 inch. It may be 2.5, but I would have a real smith with a real set of chamber gauges verify it.
In the meantime, that MAY be what was called a Model 404. Here is a C&P on what I could find.
the H&R Small Bore Double Hammer Gun (catalog name for this model) was manufactured between 1909-1920. the patent date of 2-27-1900 is one of the patent used on this gun (number 644402 attachment of hammer spring).
heres what written in the up coming H&R book on this model;
H & R SMALL BORE DOUBLE BARREL HAMMER GUN
1909-1920
The debate on just where this shotgun was manufactured is still on going. There is evidence that points to European as well as U.S.A origin. This model is listed in the catalogs as having Imported Walnut butt stock and forearm, while other H & R shotguns of the era are listed as having American Walnut butt stock and fore-end. H & R catalog number 12 (1913/1914) has a parts list and diagram that show the different parts of the action, which indicates there were parts on hand that could be ordered. This is a model that needs more research done on it. Whatever its origin, it was a limited production model offered between 1909 and 1920 and not encountered very often. I would estimate production at 5,000 to 10,000. The only variations I have discovered so far are in the chambering. The original chambering was 20 or 28 gauge and 44 cal. shot. Toward the end of production two other chambering were offered 410-44 and 14mm shot. The era of 1916/1917 appears to be the first time H & R offer their shotguns (single or double barrels) in the 410-44 chambering.
In his book The Breech Loading Shotgun in America 1865-1940, J.T. Vorisek suggests the design and machinery for this shotgun were purchased from Neumann Freres of Liege, Belgium and I am inclined to agree. The lack of any Belgium proof marks would certainly indicate manufacture in the U.S.A. In a like manner the stock being manufactured of Imported Walnut indicates some inventory on hand was also purchased.
SPECIFICATION;
Side by Side double barrel, side lock action with exposed hammers; English style walnut pistol gripped butt stock and fore-end, checkered; lock plates removed by single screw; frame forged steel; finish, browned barrel and case hardened frame; coil springs thru-out; rebounding hammers; cross bolt barrel locking; double triggers; barrel are made of de-carbonized steel; right barrel modified choke and left barrel full choke.
YEARS
1909-1916 - 20 gauge - 28 INCHES - 6 ? LBS. - Standard Loads both Black & Smokeless Powder
20 gauge - 26 INCHES - 6 LBS -- Standard Loads both Black & Smokeless Powder
28 gauge - 28 INCHES - 6 LBS -- Standard Loads both Black & smokeless Powder
28 gauge - 26 INCHES - 5 _ LBS - Standard Loads both Black & Smokeless Powder
44 cal - 26 INCHES - 5 ? LBS -- 44 W.C.F. and 44 XL shot cartridges only
1917-1920- 20 gauge - 28 INCHES - 6 ? LBS. - Standard Loads both Black & Smokeless Powder
20 gauge - 26 INCHES - 6 LBS -- Standard Loads both Black & Smokeless Powder
28 gauge - 28 INCHES - 6 LBS -- Standard Loads both Black & smokeless Powder
28 gauge - 26 INCHES - 5 _ LBS - Standard Loads both Black & Smokeless Powder
410/44 - 28 INCHES - 5 ? LBS -- 44 W.C.F. and 44 XL shot cartridges only
410/44 - 26 INCHES - 5 ? LBS -- 44 W.C.F. and 44 XL shot cartridges only
14mm gauge - 28 INCHES - 5 ? LBS -- 14mm shot cartridges only
14mm gauge - 26 INCHES - 5 ? LBS -- 14mm shot cartridges only
as this is one of the 410 chambered guns it would be of the later production.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 11b6r
That is a beauty. I'll give you $50 and even pay the shipping. [:p]
We have discussed this caliber a few times around here. Would wager that is NOT a remark of caliber- but a later production gun. As said, grew out of the 44-40 shot load, later the 44 XL shot load. Just because a 2.5 inch .410 shell fits does NOT mean that is a 2.5 inch chamber- the first .410s were 2 inch. It may be 2.5, but I would have a real smith with a real set of chamber gauges verify it.
In the meantime, that MAY be what was called a Model 404. Here is a C&P on what I could find.
the H&R Small Bore Double Hammer Gun (catalog name for this model) was manufactured between 1909-1920. the patent date of 2-27-1900 is one of the patent used on this gun (number 644402 attachment of hammer spring).
heres what written in the up coming H&R book on this model;
H & R SMALL BORE DOUBLE BARREL HAMMER GUN
1909-1920
The debate on just where this shotgun was manufactured is still on going. There is evidence that points to European as well as U.S.A origin. This model is listed in the catalogs as having Imported Walnut butt stock and forearm, while other H & R shotguns of the era are listed as having American Walnut butt stock and fore-end. H & R catalog number 12 (1913/1914) has a parts list and diagram that show the different parts of the action, which indicates there were parts on hand that could be ordered. This is a model that needs more research done on it. Whatever its origin, it was a limited production model offered between 1909 and 1920 and not encountered very often. I would estimate production at 5,000 to 10,000. The only variations I have discovered so far are in the chambering. The original chambering was 20 or 28 gauge and 44 cal. shot. Toward the end of production two other chambering were offered 410-44 and 14mm shot. The era of 1916/1917 appears to be the first time H & R offer their shotguns (single or double barrels) in the 410-44 chambering.
In his book The Breech Loading Shotgun in America 1865-1940, J.T. Vorisek suggests the design and machinery for this shotgun were purchased from Neumann Freres of Liege, Belgium and I am inclined to agree. The lack of any Belgium proof marks would certainly indicate manufacture in the U.S.A. In a like manner the stock being manufactured of Imported Walnut indicates some inventory on hand was also purchased.
SPECIFICATION;
Side by Side double barrel, side lock action with exposed hammers; English style walnut pistol gripped butt stock and fore-end, checkered; lock plates removed by single screw; frame forged steel; finish, browned barrel and case hardened frame; coil springs thru-out; rebounding hammers; cross bolt barrel locking; double triggers; barrel are made of de-carbonized steel; right barrel modified choke and left barrel full choke.
YEARS
1909-1916 - 20 gauge - 28 INCHES - 6 ? LBS. - Standard Loads both Black & Smokeless Powder
20 gauge - 26 INCHES - 6 LBS -- Standard Loads both Black & Smokeless Powder
28 gauge - 28 INCHES - 6 LBS -- Standard Loads both Black & smokeless Powder
28 gauge - 26 INCHES - 5 _ LBS - Standard Loads both Black & Smokeless Powder
44 cal - 26 INCHES - 5 ? LBS -- 44 W.C.F. and 44 XL shot cartridges only
1917-1920- 20 gauge - 28 INCHES - 6 ? LBS. - Standard Loads both Black & Smokeless Powder
20 gauge - 26 INCHES - 6 LBS -- Standard Loads both Black & Smokeless Powder
28 gauge - 28 INCHES - 6 LBS -- Standard Loads both Black & smokeless Powder
28 gauge - 26 INCHES - 5 _ LBS - Standard Loads both Black & Smokeless Powder
410/44 - 28 INCHES - 5 ? LBS -- 44 W.C.F. and 44 XL shot cartridges only
410/44 - 26 INCHES - 5 ? LBS -- 44 W.C.F. and 44 XL shot cartridges only
14mm gauge - 28 INCHES - 5 ? LBS -- 14mm shot cartridges only
14mm gauge - 26 INCHES - 5 ? LBS -- 14mm shot cartridges only
as this is one of the 410 chambered guns it would be of the later production.
The quote that I have highlighted in red, does not make sense. Why would a shotgun marked 410 not be chambered for the 410 shotgun cartridge? Why would H & R even mark it 410. If only 44 W.C.F. and 44 XL, could be shot in it.0 -
Rufe- I would assume that was a typo on the part of the author. What you say does make sense. Still a real pretty little scattergun. Would make a good bunny buster. 0 -
Thank you Gents -
I know Bill Goforth (RIP) kept records and I believe "Hrf" has them now -0
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