Fouling question
How can I tell the difference between lead fouling and powder fouling? The reason I ask is I'm trying to work up a load with my 338 Marlin using cast bullets. I'm using 5744 powder. I shot 12 rounds and wasn't real happy with the groups (2 inch), so I decided to give it a cleaning. I ran a patch soaked with Butch's Bore Shine, followed by 3 passes with a bronze brush, followed by clean dry patches. Good lord, the first patch was black, and I mean black. I must've ran a dozen patches down the bore before it was clean, and then I started the process all over twice more. I think I've got it clean, but trying to solve the problem. The bullets I'm using is a 200 grain, and according to my caliper, measures .340. Any ideas would sure be appreciated.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Marlin_Express
Interesting question. Start your testing with a clean bore free of copper fouling.
When I lead up a bore I can pull shiny metal flakes or strips out when cleaning with Shooter's Choice. Proper sizing to .001 or more larger than the groove diameter will help. Choice of lube will help with leading. Those hard lubes that make bullet handling clean while reloading do a poor job INMO compared to the old messy 50/50 beeswax/alox. There are people that make bullet sizing dies to order for a reasonable price.
I like Loverin design bullets for rifles, short nose with lots of grease groves. Gas check optional depending how hard you push the bullets, above 1800 fps they will help.
I like tin in the alloy, too much antimony without tin will crystalize on the outside with softer pure lead surrounding the crystals.
I loved the original 5744, the new improved stuff not so much.
Finding THE CAST BULLET load can be an adventure in trying all the tricks for normal loading (bullet type & weight, powder and charge weight, seating depth, primer) plus you get to choose the diameter, alloy, and lube on the bullets. Some bullets shoot better as cast and lubed by hand. I have seen cast bullets that were then swedge, group size dropped considerably.0 -
+ one hundredon the soft lube over Hard stuff bullet sellers use. BECAUSE it looks better IMHO cleaners for bore that work for jacketed bullets not best for Cast ones clean bore by this method get 3 foot section of lawnmower starter cord Tie knot at one end seal from fraying on other end with match melt end first inch while still in the melting stage wipe with wet rag to make a nice slick hardened end and not burn yourself. open action slide rope into barrel from the muzzle when it clears chamber put a clamp on the end to keep from falling out now take a can of kroil and wet the end of the rope at the chamber while holding the gun muzzle with a catch can at front end as soon as you see Kroil start to drip out stop stand rifle barrel down in a can let soak for 24 hours or more then clean. the knot on the end will protect the muzzel and help seal the kroil in Now clean with patch and Brush after it is cleaned Use a one piece steel rod with patch tighly fit with JB bore cleaner make ten passes in and out without changing patch repeat 3 times with more JB and new patch each 10 cycles Patch will all ways look black that is just the JB a thousans passes with JB will NOT DAMAGE the bore onl make it smooth 0 -
Charliemeyer007, I don't c?st my own bullets, soon kind of at the mercy of those bullet makers that sell. Beartooth and Montana cast both recommend .339 sized bullets, and neither one said they even have a sizer that is .340, so I'm not sure how these got to be that size. Perhaps I should try a different powder. The Lyman cast bullet manual says Alliant 2400 works quite well, so perhaps that is an option. 0 -
I just look Lyman doesn't even list a .338 bullet mold anymore. I checked my list and I show a Lyman 338237 at 147/195 gr? single cavity mold in my collection. The question mark means I haven't cast any and I have no idea what it actually cast. I have a .338 sizer.
I could run some for you, but I have had real poor luck mailing stuff to fellow members. The .318 bullets I cast and then sized down from .323 and the custom 310 sizing die ram shell holder never made it even with tracking.
I would look for the Lyman 338337 a 224 gr bullet mold. Its a plain base with a big dirt collector groove and several small ones up front.
My older cast bullet Lyman loading has data for the 338 Win Mag using 338320 a 204 gr. and 338389 a 249 gr. both with gas checks using: RedDot, GreenDot, Unique, 700X, PB, SR7625, 230 and 630 in the 1300 to 1800 fps range.
At the bottom of the data.
"Note: Fine accuracy and uniform velocities were turned in with all powders and bullets used. Cast bullet loading should be used standard large rifle primers lonely."
Added: I looked up the RCBS mold, lots of unsupported nose weight, not enough grease groves.
If you take care of them molds will last lifetimes if made from steel or even brass. I don't like aluminum ones. You will need handles and a ladle, a lead pot and bullet sizing gear is a nice option.
Almost my molds were paid for by selling enough bullets. After that I mostly just use them for me and perhaps a few good friends.
Trigger time with a reduced charge and a nearly free bullet making ammo twenty five cents or less a pop vs. upwards of $2 doesn't take many rounds to pay for reloading gear if you shoot more than a box a year.
added2 Loverin design short ogive (less unsupported weight) lots of grease groves. I have been casting and shooting lead bullets for 45+ years, many thousands in over a hundred different firearms. RCBS bullet designs haven't impressed me unless they were copies from Lyman or Saeco. Their quality when they first came out wasn't all that exciting either. However a buddy got their 325 gr 45 Colt bullet a few months ago. I broke it in for him and cast about 20 pounds of bullets, its was fine. They shoot good enough for him.
That bullet and your rifle might be the best ever hard to tell from here. What group size are you getting with factory jacketed bullets. Cast bullets can often shoot as good as factory stuff, in some with work and tuning they can shoot better and stuff with oversize bores cast bullets can shoot way better.
So is your rifle ironed in? as in has shot several boxes of jacketed bullets. Does it have regular type rifling not the micro-grove type?
added The Lee bullet has a short unsupported ogive (good) but not enough grease groves, could be bad. Aluminum mold perhaps not so good especially long term. JB Bore Paste will help polish it in, cheaper than ammo.0 -
Rcbs has a .338 mold, but they call it a custom mold for about $140. I gotta think on that. Meanwhile, I have 300 of the Rcbs 200 grain cast bullets ordered from Montana Bullet Co. He's no longer making bullets because of an operation he had, and the business is for sale, but he said he has 400,000 bullets in stock yet, and 1500 of them happen to be the very bullet I am looking for.I would order some from Beartooth Bullets as well, if I would have some luck with him answering the phone. I may some different powder tomorrow if it isn't raining.
So are you telling me that you don't think the Rcbs mold would be the best option for accuracy? If so, then I will get ahold of Montana cast and change to a different bullet.
Not ironed in. Probably only has had about 50 rounds thru it, and maybe 15 of those have been jacketed. It was new/never fired when I bought it here on GunBroker.
I was looking for bullet molds, and Lee is the only one I can find that still has a 338 mold. Beartooth still makes a 235 grain, but the problem is getting lucky enough to get him on the phone.0 -
generaly black 'powder' fouling is the norm. for cast bullets, you are running MUCH less pressure and the powder doesn't burn as 'clean'. the best powders for larger rifle cals. are usualy at the 'faster end' of the rifle powders. like IMR 4227, 4198, 3031, RL12, ect. also keep in mind, that you are not getting the same velocity as jacketed bullets . a longer bullet (read heavey) will reqire a faster 'twist' than a jacketed bullet. 0 -
Mike Whiskey, that's an interesting point. Perhaps I should try some 4198. I have a whole pound of it sitting here, may just as well try it. Trouble is, is that it's 95 degrees outside. LOL. Yeah, I know I'm a wuss. I'll probably go out after bit and shoot though. Just have to take my time. Shute, I've been in hotter places, like Iraq, Kuwait, Saudia Arabia, Afghanistan, and a few other god forsaken places. I'd really like to get some cast bullets to shoot at least 1 1/2" groups. I would be satisfied, sorta, with that.I haven't tried any factory ammo yet, and yes, I need too. Nearest factory ammo is about 90 miles away, and with all the overtime I've been working, it's hard to break away when I've got so much else to do.It'll all work out though. Sooner or later. Thanks for the ideas though.
It's over 90 degrees out. South wind at 8 mph. Just shot a 3 shot group out of the Marlin 338. 1 inch group at 80 yards. 27.0 grains of 5744. 200 grain cast bullet. The barrel was fresh cleaned with Butch's Bore Shine. I wanna repeat before I claim to have an acceptable load. Hopefully, this isn't a fluke.0 -
I don't use the .338, but I have had very good luck with Cast Performance bullets from Rainier, OR in my 1895 45-70. These are 300 grain flat nose with gas checks. You might give them a call they are very helpful on the phone (503-556-1448). I use H335 in the 45-70 and it is accurate and quite a bit more powerful than the store stuff that has to allow for trapdoors etc. 0 -
you should also try a 'filler' over the powder to keep it against the primer flash. I like cotton balls, just a small 'tuff'. I get maybe 15 shells per 'ball'. other fillers are cream of wheat, corm meal, and dacron fibers (pillow suffing). 0 -
quote:Originally posted by hadjii
Mike Whiskey, that's an interesting point. Perhaps I should try some 4198. I have a whole pound of it sitting here, may just as well try it. Trouble is, is that it's 95 degrees outside. LOL. Yeah, I know I'm a wuss. I'll probably go out after bit and shoot though. Just have to take my time. Shute, I've been in hotter places, like Iraq, Kuwait, Saudia Arabia, Afghanistan, and a few other god forsaken places. I'd really like to get some cast bullets to shoot at least 1 1/2" groups. I would be satisfied, sorta, with that.I haven't tried any factory ammo yet, and yes, I need too. Nearest factory ammo is about 90 miles away, and with all the overtime I've been working, it's hard to break away when I've got so much else to do.It'll all work out though. Sooner or later. Thanks for the ideas though.
It's over 90 degrees out. South wind at 8 mph. Just shot a 3 shot group out of the Marlin 338. 1 inch group at 80 yards. 27.0 grains of 5744. 200 grain cast bullet. The barrel was fresh cleaned with Butch's Bore Shine. I wanna repeat before I claim to have an acceptable load. Hopefully, this isn't a fluke.
62fuelie, I checked their website. No offerings for 33 caliber. Mike Whiskey, I tried some filler once. An old gunshop owner said to try toilet paper squares. Depending on the case, you would use 1 or 2 or 3 squares. I may revisit that idea.
I just came back in from shooting a 3 shot group, using 200 grain ftx bullets ahead of 44.0 grains of LVR. 3 shots all intersecting with a group size of .5 inches at 80 yards. I hope these 2 groups I just shot aren't flukes. It's gonna take a few groups to validate this.0
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