how much is too much power in a small frame Glock
I have a Glock 23. it has a 4" barrel.
semiauto handgun ammo gets a lot of power boost all the way up to 5", then gains for 6" and longer are not really worth it.
so it would be nice if I could put a 5" barrel in my G23.
can't use the 4.5" barrel of the G22, or the 5" barrel of the G35, because they are incompatible with the G23.
okay, I can get a 5.3" Lone Wolf barrel, model LWD-2340XL for 125$.
and now for the reason for writing this topic.
you can get very powerful Cor-Bon 135 grain ammo:
3" 440 ft-lb
4" 546 ft-lb
5" 632 ft-lb
6" 652 ft-lb
so I gain 90 ft-lb by using a 5" barrel.
but is 630 ft-lb too much power? that's around as much as a 10mm, and the Glock 10mm has been known to have problems with the slide lugs shearing off. it seems to have reached the limit of what the polymer-to-metal bonding process can handle.
10mm (and .45) has a larger frame. can the smaller .40/9mm frame handle that much power, if the 10mm frame can't?
on the other hand the G22 has a 4.5" barrel, and the G35 has a 5.3" barrel. wouldn't they experience excessively high power with hot loads, since they have long barrels?
on the other other hand, those frames are slightly different. can't use their barrels in G23 or G27. are they made to handle more power?
on the other other other hand, maybe frame size doesn't mean anything and a G27/G23 can handle as much power as the 10mm/.45 frame, those are just bigger because the ammo is bigger.
I don't know what to think. should I worry about it or not? and you know how when something breaks on a gun, that's when you are using it and need it the most.
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quote:Originally posted by rsnyder55
I don't know if I am missing the point, but isn't the additional power due to the longer barrel and increased velocity of the bullet?
When is the peak pressure of the cartridge you are using? Is it when the bullet still in the barrel and how is the curve affected by the longer barrel. If the velocity gain is after the peak pressure of the barrel, i.e. within the first four inches, I don't see how that would increase the wear/strain on the
that was exactly the point. I would put in a longer barrel, so I can get more power out of the same round... which results in more recoil. is launching a bullet at 632 ft-lb of muzzle energy (and associated recoil) too much for that frame to handle?
with the stock 4" barrel it makes 546 ft-lb, I'm sure the frame can handle that much power. it was designed to.
chamber pressure has nothing to do with it.
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
If you want, and need a 10mm, buy one. Do not try to make a 40 S&W, or a 45 ACP, something it is not. If you do, just remember...it is your face and hands.
it's factory ammo. you put it in a 4" barrel, you get 546 ft-lb. you put it in a 5" barrel you get 632 ft-lb.
there is no difference in chamber pressure whatsoever.
I would rather spend 125$ on a spare barrel to swap, than 500$ on another gun, and having to mess with boxes of different caliber ammo, different spare parts, accessories, holsters, yada yada for 2 different guns.
semiauto handgun ammo gets a lot of power boost all the way up to 5", then gains for 6" and longer are not really worth it.
so it would be nice if I could put a 5" barrel in my G23.
can't use the 4.5" barrel of the G22, or the 5" barrel of the G35, because they are incompatible with the G23.
okay, I can get a 5.3" Lone Wolf barrel, model LWD-2340XL for 125$.
and now for the reason for writing this topic.
you can get very powerful Cor-Bon 135 grain ammo:
3" 440 ft-lb
4" 546 ft-lb
5" 632 ft-lb
6" 652 ft-lb
so I gain 90 ft-lb by using a 5" barrel.
but is 630 ft-lb too much power? that's around as much as a 10mm, and the Glock 10mm has been known to have problems with the slide lugs shearing off. it seems to have reached the limit of what the polymer-to-metal bonding process can handle.
10mm (and .45) has a larger frame. can the smaller .40/9mm frame handle that much power, if the 10mm frame can't?
on the other hand the G22 has a 4.5" barrel, and the G35 has a 5.3" barrel. wouldn't they experience excessively high power with hot loads, since they have long barrels?
on the other other hand, those frames are slightly different. can't use their barrels in G23 or G27. are they made to handle more power?
on the other other other hand, maybe frame size doesn't mean anything and a G27/G23 can handle as much power as the 10mm/.45 frame, those are just bigger because the ammo is bigger.
I don't know what to think. should I worry about it or not? and you know how when something breaks on a gun, that's when you are using it and need it the most.
****************************************
quote:Originally posted by rsnyder55
I don't know if I am missing the point, but isn't the additional power due to the longer barrel and increased velocity of the bullet?
When is the peak pressure of the cartridge you are using? Is it when the bullet still in the barrel and how is the curve affected by the longer barrel. If the velocity gain is after the peak pressure of the barrel, i.e. within the first four inches, I don't see how that would increase the wear/strain on the
that was exactly the point. I would put in a longer barrel, so I can get more power out of the same round... which results in more recoil. is launching a bullet at 632 ft-lb of muzzle energy (and associated recoil) too much for that frame to handle?
with the stock 4" barrel it makes 546 ft-lb, I'm sure the frame can handle that much power. it was designed to.
chamber pressure has nothing to do with it.
quote:Originally posted by tsr1965
If you want, and need a 10mm, buy one. Do not try to make a 40 S&W, or a 45 ACP, something it is not. If you do, just remember...it is your face and hands.
it's factory ammo. you put it in a 4" barrel, you get 546 ft-lb. you put it in a 5" barrel you get 632 ft-lb.
there is no difference in chamber pressure whatsoever.
I would rather spend 125$ on a spare barrel to swap, than 500$ on another gun, and having to mess with boxes of different caliber ammo, different spare parts, accessories, holsters, yada yada for 2 different guns.
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I have 2 Glocks. With Lone Wolf, "tight chamber" barrels, in both of them. Did a lot of very hot loads reloading, for my G 20 when I first got it. Using the original Glock barrel.
Glocks are very light guns, weight wise. Very unpleasant shooting with hot handloads. ( Full case of AA 9, under 135 grain Nosler JHP ). After shooting just once in the original G 20 barrel. The brass was toast, i.e. unreloadable.
Corbon is great ammo for personal protection. Not so much for casual shooting. Keep the original barrel in your G 23. Use the Corbon for EDC, personal protection ammo.
Buy yourself a steel frame pistol. For very hot barn burner loads, in either 40 S & W, or 10mm.0 -
I don't know if I am missing the point, but isn't the additional power due to the longer barrel and increased velocity of the bullet?
When is the peak pressure of the cartridge you are using? Is it when the bullet still in the barrel and how is the curve affected by the longer barrel. If the velocity gain is after the peak pressure of the barrel, i.e. within the first four inches, I don't see how that would increase the wear/strain on the gun.
SAAMI spec lists max pressure of this round at around 33,000. 10mm goes to 37,000. However I believe most 10mm ammo is loaded to 10mm light specs which I believe (and I could be wrong) around 33,000.
So no matter how fast the bullet ends up going, a commercial manufacturer cannot exceed those pressures and I believe Glock and all other manufacturers make their guns to exceed SAAMI specs for the caliber they are chambered for.
I don't think the peak pressure changes, but it may decrease more slowly due to the bullet still being in the barrel and being accelerated.
I hope this came out right.0 -
If you want, and need a 10mm, buy one. Do not try to make a 40 S&W, or a 45 ACP, something it is not. If you do, just remember...it is your face and hands.
quote:chamber pressure has nothing to do with it.
You are so very wrong...chamber pressure has every thing in the world to do with it. It determines how many pounds of force is acting on your breech face, to unlock your gun. Keep bullet energy out of this one, as IT has nothing to do with it.
Power is discerned by powder capacity, what powder is being used, and its burn rate, the length of the barrel, to efficiently burn ALL of the powder, and rated maximum working pressure. In handgun length barrels, your best power is made with heavy bullets, and medium to slow burning propellants, provided you have enough case capacity to work with. However, I don't think it is that type of power that you are worried about. It is the pounds of force working on your gun, which is much different than pound-feet. What you are looking at is taking the working pressure, in pounds per square inch, and multiplying it by the surface area of the head of the casing, in square inches...your result will leave you with pounds, and since it is in motion, it is considered pounds force.
Most of the big ammo maker's load the FBI load in 10mm, in most of their stuff, while also offering a middle of the road load. Double Tap, and Buffalo Bore still offer ammo, for what the 10mm was intended to be. At it's peak power, it is the equivalent of a 41 magnum.
EDIT 1
quote:there is no difference in chamber pressure whatsoever.
I see...then you shouldn't be worried about the gun...it will hold its own. The amount of pounds of force, acting against the lock up, that is directly related to chamber pressure, is what breaks guns.
However, I highly doubt the little gain in bullet energy you will realize, will be all that noticeable to the shooter...plus, your numbers are only in theory for the exact barrel, and ammunition, tested on that day, during the ambient conditions, of which it was tested. Still, the fact remains, you are not going to make a 40 S&W, into a 10mm, no matter what length barrel you put on it. It just doesn't work like that. It never hurts to have more than one system...i.e., as two guns, leather, magazines. As for caliber, they are both the same caliber, and shoot the same, exact diameter projectiles. As a side note, adding that much barrel, must take away from the attributes of having a "smaller framed gun"? Glock does make a Model 29, which is effectively the same size as the 19, and 23, but only in 10mm.
EDIT 2
quote:I'd get the 5" barrel anyway not only for the SAAMI chamber but for cut rifling. You may see less flash as a benefit.
Something here isn't made clear. The bullet develops energy by virtue of chamber pressure and barrel length. Mathematically, it's the integral of pressure and time the bullet is in the barrel. The longer the barrel, the greater the time in the barrel and the greater the bullet energy. By basic laws of Physics, energy in the bullet equals energy absorbed by the gun in recoil.
Forget about chamber pressure, that's handled by the barrel and locking lug. Glock has taken care of that.
The gun as a system is developing 90 ft lbs more energy in recoil so the provision of the Glock, i.e. recoil spring/buffer has to handle the increase.
I am not sure where you learned your Physics from, but either you were not fed the full dosage, or you left some on the table.
The Bullet Energy, is in pound-feet of the E=MC^2, or more properly in this case E=MV^2. As I have stated the recoil, which is the equal reaction to the pounds force(very different than pound-feet), that is applied to the breach face by peak chamber pressure, multiplied by the surface area in square inches of the case head. Beantown has described it sufficiently.0 -
The 5" barrel and its' lockup with the slide take all the pressure of what goes on in the chamber. The barrel lockup surface area is the same on all Glocks so the barrel and slide will unquestionably take it.
What will be different on shorter model Glock guns is the recoil that has to be handled by a shorter recoil spring and frame.
I'd buy the 5" aftermarket barrel for the power boost and check with Wolf Springs for the heaviest spring combination for that intermediate frame size. If they have a calibration pack, buy it and start with the heaviest.
Also buy a polyurethane buffer to start with
You can always chuck it.
If you find the gun is too much for you, you can have the barrel Magna Ported, cut down or threaded for a muzzle brake.0 -
This thread is hard to follow, but I'll give my two cents.
What wears out gun locking systems isn't muzzle energy or velocity or recoil, its peak chamber pressure.
Its the peak chamber pressure (and specifically pressure of the rear of the cartridge against the breech face) that determines the maximum force exerted by the barrel of the gun against the locking system.
Longer barrels don't alter the peak pressure. . .if that were true, they would be intrinsically unsafe, and they are not. Just think about it for a second. . .peak pressure happens before the bullet moves more than a fraction of an inch out of the cartridge. . .whether the barrel is 1" long, or 4" long or 12" long doesn't change it. . .by the time the bullet gets to the second barrel inch (let alone the 4th or 5th) chamber pressure is way down.
What a longer barrel does do is change the pressure curve so that total area under the pressure vs time curve is greater. (IE Same peak pressure, but it takes a little longer for total pressure to get to zero in a longer barrel).
So, all else being equal, I don't see why a 5" barreled gun is going to wear out the frame or components any faster than a 4" barreled one.
In practice, assuming the gun and ammo are both within spec, any Glock should be OK for tends of thousands of rounds.
In short, no, if you're using NORMAL .40SW ammo in an otherwise normal gun, and the 5" barrel in question is within spec and geometrically/mechanically OK with that gun, there should be no difference in gun wear.
All that said, meh. . out of a gun that's already putting out 540 ft-lbs of energy, I don't think another 90 ft lbs is going to make much real-world difference. >500ft-lbs is already plenty of gun for any two legged target. With a longer barrel you'll get more recoil, more muzzle flip, and IMO, getting off faster followup shots is more important than slightly more power. Longer barrel also makes the gun harder to carry and conceal.
Maybe for hunting longer barrel offers some benefit (though who hunts with a .40SW Glock?), but for service/carry/defensive use, I think any benefit is probably marginal at best.0 -
Maybe for hunting longer barrel offers some benefit (though who hunts with a .40SW Glock?)
I use a Glock 20C for hunting at times with a longer barrel, but with most 10mm ammunition I am able to find, unless it is Norma or the like, it doesn't seem much more powerful than the 40 S&W. (10mm lite)0 -
I'd get the 5" barrel anyway not only for the SAAMI chamber but for cut rifling. You may see less flash as a benefit.
Something here isn't made clear. The bullet develops energy by virtue of chamber pressure and barrel length. Mathematically, it's the integral of pressure and time the bullet is in the barrel. The longer the barrel, the greater the time in the barrel and the greater the bullet energy. By basic laws of Physics, energy in the bullet equals energy absorbed by the gun in recoil.
Forget about chamber pressure, that's handled by the barrel and locking lug. Glock has taken care of that.
The gun as a system is developing 90 ft lbs more energy in recoil so the provision of the Glock, i.e. recoil spring/buffer has to handle the increase.0 -
Let me use an anology here. You have a car that was designed to use a four cylinder engine. It works well as designed. But you decide you need more power so you remove the four cylinder engine and replace it with an eight cylinder engine. Now it might work, but the car was not designed for the extra power you have installed, and you just might destroy a car that was fine because you had to go and overpower it instead of buying a more powerful car.
If you want a more powerful firearm then buy one; don't let Bubba convince you that physics don't matter.[:)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by v35
By basic laws of Physics, energy in the bullet equals energy absorbed by the gun in recoil.
Sorry, but this is simply not true, as a moments thought should demonstrate.
If it were true that recoil energy of the gun were the same as muzzle energy, every time you fired a handgun, you'd blow your hand off. Every time you fired a rifle, you'd destroy your shoulder, etc.
In closed systems under classical (Newtonian) mechanics, its MOMENTUM that's conserved, not energy. Force is equal on both sides. . .not energy.
In other words, the force the expanding gas exerts on the bullet is the same as that on the gun.
The big difference is that because the bullet is much LIGHTER than the gun, it accelerates to a much higher velocity and develops higher kinetic energy.
quote:
The gun as a system is developing 90 ft lbs more energy in recoil so the provision of the Glock, i.e. recoil spring/buffer has to handle the increase.
Again, no.
Its is true that the faster moving bullet will generate more recoil, and the recoil energy of the gun will be higher. . .but it won't be 90 ft-lbs higher, nor anywhere near it!
Again, since kinetic energy is equal to the SQUARE of velocity, the lighter, faster moving bullet is going to be developing much more kinetic energy than the gun.
IE, the longer barrel is going to make the BULLET gain another 75fps. . .but the gun isn't going to recoil that much faster.0 -
It's actually more complicated than that and hard to simplify for the layman.
The first law of thermodynamics states, energy cannot be created or destroyed but only translated into another form.
We've moved afield of the shooters' question and beyond the issues facing the shooter. The first one is academic.
I view the question as twofold: will the barrel take it and will the gun take it.
The answer to 1) If any mid size Glock, barrel and slide will take the added pressure, his will as the lockup components are identical.
They take the stresses of increased chamber pressure.
2) Recoil will increase so a heavier spring is probably called for.
Recoil calculations follow:
I =(WB*VB+4000*WC)225400 where I=recoil impulse lbs sec,
WB=Wt of bullet, VB bullet V in fps, WC=wt of charge
Free recoil velocity= VG=32.2*I/WG where VG= gun velocity in fps, WG= gun wt in lbs.
Finally, Kick= EG=WG*VG.VG/64.4
So you see it's pointless to get overly complicated when just a concept and not hard data will suffice.0
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