C & R ??
At the local gun show a 'dealer' had a 'Stoeger luger' navy (s.s. 6" barrel) mgf. in 1995. I claim it is C&R ok, he said no, it's a modern gun and must do paperwork ect. (I traded for it). So I have to do all the paper work and 48 hr. waiting period [xx(]. What say you ?
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I have not looked it up in the ATF book personally, but it does seem to be on the C + R list. Most Stoeger Lugers available on the auction sites are being shipped to C + R license holders. 0 -
ATF P5300.11 specifically includes "all Lugers manufactured before 1946", & a handful of specific Mauser Lugers.
Updates to the C&R list on the ATF website do not include any Stoeger Lugers.
I'd have to go along with your seller; absent written proof that a gun < 50 years old is on the C&R list, you have to treat it as a regular firearm.
Neal
EDIT: While I can understand the ATF's definition of C&R, it doesn't help me understand how just about every Colt commemorative ever made is a C&R, but few commemoratives made by 50 other manufacturers are. Maybe you just have to submit a request. Of course, if approved, this will be of value to Mike only when he sells his Luger.
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If it has 8" or longer barrels, it MAY be a C&R. { No 6" barrels make the cut [:(]} There are also some needed
markings to make it a C&R under this rule:
""Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of
their monetary value from the fact that they are
novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with
some historical figure, peri
od, or event. Proof of
qualification of a particular firearm
under this category may be established by evidence of present value
and evidence that like firearms are not available excep
t as collector's items, or that the value of like
firearms available in ordinary commerci
al channels is substantially less""
I bought a 1911 colt Gold Cup NRA CENTENNIAL EDITION, many years ago as a C&R, It was made in 1972, and sold to me in 1983.
A gun doesn't have to be 50 years old to be a C&R.
This model, {irregardless of year made} is C&R.
http://www.GunBroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=4772300960 -
quote:Originally posted by MIKE WISKEY
At the local gun show a 'dealer' had a 'Stoeger luger' navy (s.s. 6" barrel) mgf. in 1995. I claim it is C&R ok, he said no, it's a modern gun and must do paperwork ect. (I traded for it). So I have to do all the paper work and 48 hr. waiting period [xx(]. What say you ?
I think your 'dealer' is correct. If you disagree, the burden of proof is on you to show him how this gun qualifies as a C&R. Can you do that?
I don't think you can. The gun isn't 50 years old, and its not on the C&R list (see below). It *might* still qualify, but it would take some fairly unusual circumstances to do so.
EG, if you happened to have a signed letter from a museum curator stating that the gun in question has historical value as a curio, you're good to go. I'm guessing that isn't the case, though.
Alternatively, if this particular gun had a particularly unusual provenance (ie it was owned by a famous person, or was connected to a specific historical incident) *and* you could prove it *and* the gun was worth more than other similar ones, you "should" be OK (though a BATFE agent could still not "like" it, and try to challenge your classification).
Barring these things, I don't think it qualifies. Here is the relevant info I found from the BATFE C&R list on Stoeger lugers (and its the only info in all the C&R lists and updates):
quote:Luger, DWM Stoeger model 1920 and 1923, semiautomatic pistols in 7.65mm or 9mm parabellum cal., in barrel lengths of 8, 10, 12, and 12-1/2", having either American Eagle chamber crests
and/or Stoeger frame and/or upper receiver marks, having either standard, Navy or artillery rear sights, having extractors marked either "Loaded" or "Geladen" and having frame safety markings of either "Gesichert" or "Safe," together w/original commercial flat board stocks of the artillery type, which bear no S/Ns or military proof marks; may include a "Germany" marking.
So a 6" bbl gun doesn't qualify as a C&R. Here are the criteria for C&R guns that are NOT 50+ years old, or not officially recognized as such in writing by the BATFE. Again, I don't think this one likely meets the criteria:
quote:Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.0 -
It is not mentioned in the C&R List, nor can I find it in any of the listed addenda's. It is not fifty years old, so unless it has an accompanying letter from the BATF which clearly states that it is novel, rare, or bizarre,, or has some historical provenance and is certified as such from an accredited museum, I can't see how it is a Curio and Relic by definition. 0 -
"I can't see how it is a Curio and Relic by definition."........thanks all for your opinions. once I get it in hand I'll get a letter off to the atf and see if I can get them to make this a c&r. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by MIKE WISKEY
At the local gun show a 'dealer' had a 'Stoeger luger' navy (s.s. 6" barrel) mgf. in 1995. I claim it is C&R ok, he said no, it's a modern gun and must do paperwork ect. (I traded for it). So I have to do all the paper work and 48 hr. waiting period [xx(]. What say you ?
The Stoeger Luger is probably being confused with other post 1946 Lugers, such as the Swiss "American Eagle" imported by Interarms IIRC, that are C & R eligible. The Stoeger Luger, stainless and in 4" and 6" (I have the 6") are not presently C & R eligible. But they do carry an "American Eagle" stamped on the receiver and that may cause a "misremebering".
They Stoeger Lugers are great little pistols and the 6" version shoots very well. A touch of "blacking" on the front sight helps. [;)]
FYI - Mitchells Mausers evidently took over from Stoeger at some point, toward the end of production. I don't have 1st hand but haven't heard postive things about the Mitchells version.0 -
I did not renew my C&R after 2 sessions because none of the local business would honor it and I had to fill out all the paperwork anyway's or no sale. The only thing it was good for was getting discounts on some places like Midway and Brownells. I did get a couple of Yugo Tokarevs from SOG with my C&R but there was not much interesting in the Surplus field coming in at the time. 0 -
C& R usage is really tied to what you collect. I do Winchesters and it works well for me. I don't usually do much outside them. 0
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