Rifle Barrel length
I want to cut down a M44 Rusian rifle to 16.5 inches is there any reason balisticly why this wold be a bad idea? Such as twist rate or bullet stability. I know I can cut the rifle down to 16 inches with out any legal problems but want to do 16.5 to be on the safe side
If force ain't work'n... Your not use'n nough of it
If force ain't work'n... Your not use'n nough of it
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So I understand that a rifle barrel has to be 16 or more inches to avoid NFA rules. But, I could not find a reference as to whether a threaded on "flash hider" or similar muzzle extention can be measured as part of the barrel. What is the CW on this?
Thanks nononsense and 11bfr The atf language was exactly what I needed to know.0 -
A threaded component that is not permanently attached des not count for barrel length. Pin it and weld the pin in place, it counts. 0 -
mrs102,
This is the wording used by ATF as a definition of the process:
"The ATF procedure for measuring barrel length is to measure from the closed bolt (or breech-face) to the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device. Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100?F) silver soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over.
Barrels are measured by inserting a dowel rod into the barrel until the rod stops against the bolt or breech-face. The rod is then marked at the furthermost end of the barrel or permanently attached muzzle device, withdrawn from the barrel, and measured."
Best.0 -
If I could piggyback on the opening question. Suppose a person had a 16" barreled rifle they wanted to reconfigure to a less than 16" barreled rifle, the permanently attached muzzle device bringing the barrel back up to the 16" minimum. How's does one do that and not, at least temporarily, violate federal law when one is at the "cut barrel" configuration but not yet "permanently attached brake" configuration? 0 -
Remove barrel from rifle. Cut, permanently attach device, reinstall on rifle. 0 -
In order to cut, crown, and externally thread the barrel for the barrel device, it will need to be removed from the rifle. The threading part is not something that can be accomplished with a threading die, and needs to be done on a lathe, by someone with experience in doing so. Then fasten the device, permanently, and reinstall barrel assembly on the rifle. 0 -
dfletcher,
quote: How's does one do that and not, at least temporarily, violate federal law when one is at the "cut barrel" configuration but not yet "permanently attached brake" configuration?
This is a case of logic and reasonability. We have to assume that there will be a short period of time in which the barrel and gunsmith will be in violation of the law due to fact that the 'muzzle extension' cannot magically appear on the end of the newly cut barrel. So obviously some time has to expire during which the muzzle is crowned and the end of the barrel is threaded before this transition can take place. However, generally speaking it must expeditious and not put off overnight.
Best.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dfletcher
If I could piggyback on the opening question. Suppose a person had a 16" barreled rifle they wanted to reconfigure to a less than 16" barreled rifle, the permanently attached muzzle device bringing the barrel back up to the 16" minimum. How's does one do that and not, at least temporarily, violate federal law when one is at the "cut barrel" configuration but not yet "permanently attached brake" configuration?
Heh.
Answer given. You take the barrel off the gun, cut and thread it, pin and weld the attachment, and then don't re-attach the barrel until the barrel is in legal configuration.
Do it that way, and there is never a point in time where you have a gun in an illegal configuration.
If you wanted you could even store the receiver of the gun in a completely different place at the time of the barrel operations, so there is no chance of you ever being caught with all the parts necessary to built an illegal gun at one time. Or have someone else do the cutting, welding and pinning.
Yes, in *theory* if you are in control of a short barrel and a gun it attaches to, you could be held liable for "constructive possession" of an illegal weapon, even if the parts are in physically different places. That's a technical rule effectively prohibiting owning all the parts necessary to build an illegal gun without assembling them.
In *practice* proving contructive possession requires intent, and if you've bought a flash hider, and are actually in the process of installing it, you can probably satisfactorily prove that your intent is to construct a legal gun. This publically posted internet thread could even provide documentary evidence of your intent. [;)]
Further, and more important than these theoretical concerns, the BATFE isn't standing in your shop watching you. Unless you're effectively an idiot, and actually assemble the gun in an illegal way, then take it to a public place or post pictures of it on the internet, the BATFE will never know, nor care, that for two hours you owned all the parts capable of being assembled into an illegal gun.
Do the right thing, don't be stupid, and you'll be fine. [:p]
edit:
quote:I have bought guns (mostly shotgun)from people who unknowingly had short barrels. . . . As soon as I buy it I immediately take the barrel off and destroy it. Either crush it in a vise or cut it off at the breach so it can't be used again. Then I add it to the scrap bin. Leaving it around even if not attached is just asking for problems, remember Ruby Ridge.
I think your points are all good, and your advice about not leaving potentially illegally combined parts lying around sage, but in the situation you describe you're already starting out the gate with something illegal. You HAVE to do SOMETHING to remedy that, or you've got zero "defense" from a legal perspective.
Ruby Ridge was a gigantic fiasco, but to be clear, Randy Weaver was charged with manufacture of illegal weapons, that he allegedly sold to an informant. He was never charged with "constructive possession" of parts that MIGHT be assembled into an illegal gun. . .there were actually illegal guns there. He claimed he was framed. So not sure what the relevance is here.
Much more important, long before the BATFE ever got involved with Weaver, he had already drawn the attention of local law enforcement, the US Secret Service, and the FBI. It may not have been his fault, but there was already a perception that he might be a threat and he was already under unusual scrutiny.
The point is, what the Feds did 25 years ago in some remote depopulated area in Idaho probably doesn't generalize to the average "schmoe" with a clean background working in their garage.
It certainly doesn't excuse gov't overreach, but if you're tangentially associated with members of gov't hating survivalist/apocalyptic groups, live in a cabin in the woods to which you've explicitly retreated to escape conventional civilization, and have already been interviewed by multiple Federal law enforcement agencies you *MIGHT* want to think twice about modifying weapons at home. . .even if you're certain you're doing so legally.
quote:+1 they act like a hack saw is a rare tool requiring years of training to use.
Not sure what the context on this is, but yeah, just hacksawing off a barrel is pretty easy. For a shotgun, there isn't much more to it than that. But if you want to cut down a rifle barrel and have the thing shoot accurately afterwards, you need to recrown it, and that's actually "work". The you need to thread the muzzle, pin and weld it. These things aren't "rocket science", but they're beyond the capability of the average gun owner who lacks the right tools and experience.
Personally, I'd never even try this. As an learning exercise in gunsmithing, sure, it makes sense, but just to have a shorter barreled gun?
ARs are so cheap now, and so common, its probably easier/faster/cheaper just to sell the one you've got and buy one in the configuration you like than to try this.
$450 will buy you a brand new 14.7" upper with pinned/welded extension in place, and you can probably find a used one cheaper. If you like you can sell the longer upper you've got (that's not a "gun" and it requires no paperwork), and use the money to buy one of these.0 -
I have bought guns (mostly shotgun)from people who unknowingly had short barrels. I even bought one from a gunshop that was short. It has not happened a lot of times maybe three or four. Usually someone made a home defense gun most commonly on Remington 870s and Mossberg 500s. As soon as I buy it I immediately take the barrel off and destroy it. Either crush it in a vise or cut it off at the breach so it can't be used again. Then I add it to the scrap bin. Leaving it around even if not attached is just asking for problems, remember Ruby Ridge. 0 -
+1 they act like a hack saw is a rare tool requiring years of training to use. 0 -
I have a 14" Thompson Contender barrel that someone shrink fitted an extension on to make it over 16". Is that enough to be able to use a shoulder stock or what else do I need? 0
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