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Value of old Ward & Son's Damascus coach gun?

resdead
EDIT: IT HAS ALREADY BEEN DETERMINED THAT THIS FIREARM IS OF LEGAL LENGTH - BARRELS 18.5" OVERALL 34"

We just pulled this out of my grandfather in laws safe - this thing is an old family relic. It's pretty clear it was cut down into a "coach gun" - that said I have a few questions...

Given the barrel length I know I would technically need an SBS stamp to make it legal, but given that it's an old Damascus it wouldn't be safe to shoot typically anyway. I know antique firearms are more valuable when they're functional, but I also don't want to do anything illegal.

My first question is this: Is there a way I can legally sell or trade it in "functional" condition without obtaining an SBS since I don't intend to keep it? (I would love the moderators to answer this one, as I intend to sell it through the website).

My second question: If there is no way to keep it functional as in the first question, am I doing enough by removing the firing pins, or should I actually be tack-welding the holes so the gun is never shootable again?

My third question: If it is sufficient to simply remove the firing pins, can I sell them "separately" to technically legally maintain the guns operability and value?

My fourth and most important question: What is this thing worth?

Here's what I know about it:

Ward & Son's "Fine London Twist"
Ward & Sons was a Victoria-era gunmaker in the Gun Quarter of Birmingam - creation date of this shotgun is going to be between 1859-1935 as they went out of business just before WWII
There is a small crack in the stock behind the trigger group

Any info and answers are appreciated. If anyone can tell me where on the gun to find more identifying markings to help in valuing it, just let me know and I can take more photos and look some more.

Thanks!

And please, I would love honest feedback and not lowballers who secretly want to buy it. If it isn't worth it, I'll just keep it as a mantlepiece

http://postimg.org/image/zahddi2rb/
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Comments

13 comments

Date Votes
  • Mark G
    From The ATF website:

    May a private citizen register a firearm not previously registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record?





    No. The NFA permits only manufacturers, makers, importers, and certain governmental entities to register firearms.

    [26 U.S.C. 5841(b) and 5861(d); 27 CFR 479.101(b) and 479.104
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  • charliemeyer007
    Looks to be worth 10 to 20 years at some federal hotel.

    I would at least take it apart.

    added I couldn't care less what you do, but as pieces it's not a firearm, if your barrels are less than 18" and attached then its a sawed of shotgun, safe to shoot or not. I'm sure there are regulations to de-mill it so it spend it's life on a wall.
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  • farfromnormal
    I can't tell from the pictures, but if the barrels are at least 18" and overall length is at least 26" it is a legal shotgun.
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  • resdead
    quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
    Looks to be worth 10 to 20 years at some federal hotel.

    I would at least take it apart.


    Yeah that's not gonna happen... destroying ANY antique firearm, despite it's legality when operable, is just...stupid really. Hence why I mentioned the option of removing the firing pins and putting a tack weld in each hole where they previously went. That, I know for a fact, would make this legal as it would no longer be considered a firearm that could ever be operable again. It would essentially become an "authentic replica"
    My question was if it was possible to achieve the same effect, legally speaking, by simply removing the pins and NOT welding over their holes.

    I'll double-check barrel length now, but dismantling the firearm and destroying it won't happen. At the very least it should have a "wall hanger" value - that's what I'm trying to determine if there's no legal way to sell it while functional.
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  • tjh1948
    IRCC, possession of the weapon, even if disassembled is constructive possession of a NFA weapon & is subject to legal action by the GOV.
    I would return it to the in laws ASAP if it is in your possession.

    Personally, I would have the in laws either destroy it or turn it in for destruction. Modified as you stated, I doubt that there is an collectable value left; just legal fees if caught with it.
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  • nmyers
    Removing the firing pins &/or welding the barrels would be pointless. A SBSG can't be legalized unless you get rid of the barrels.

    Value as a "decorator", had it not been altered, would have been $200-300. In current condition, it's value is zero. Not a "low ball" figure, just an opinion.

    Neal
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  • Hawk Carse
    Is the actual barrel length secret?
    If less than 18", unless you can PROVE it is a pre 1899 antique AND positively show that a sawn off antique is not NFA regulated, nobody with any sense is going to mess with it.

    If you want to research it for your own satisfaction, take the barrels off and post the proof marks on the barrel and receiver flats.

    A Ward hammer gun, not sawn off, sold in England for 150 pounds ($215) in 2012.
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  • Bill DeShivs
    The barrels appear to be at least 18" long. If they are, what you have is a shotgun-period.

    If they aren't 18", the gun is illegal as long as you have the barrels in your possession. With barrels under 18", even welding the firing pin holes won't make it legal.
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  • resdead
    quote:Originally posted by tjh1948
    IRCC, possession of the weapon, even if disassembled is constructive possession of a NFA weapon & is subject to legal action by the GOV.
    I would return it to the in laws ASAP if it is in your possession.

    Personally, I would have the in laws either destroy it or turn it in for destruction. Modified as you stated, I doubt that there is an collectable value left; just legal fees if caught with it.



    See, I find this hard to believe considering I can go to the army surplus store and completely legally buy a decommissioned hand grenade, which would be completely illegal for me to posses otherwise, because it's been modified in a way which it can never be made operable again.
    That, and the game warden seemed to agree to me when I asked him, hence why I said "I know for a fact" ;)
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  • resdead
    Alright, just measured them... despite the fact that it looks way too short, the thing is not only legal, but it's legal by a pretty fair margin too. Barrels measure in at just under 19" and the overall length is around 34". I didn't believe it when I measured it but it's true...

    That said, I'm not 100% positive it was "cut down" since, looking online, coach guns were actually made at 18". I only assume it's cut down because the ends are shinier than the outside.

    So yeah, completely legal vintage coach gun... any thoughts on the specific value of this one? I'm not sure exactly what markings I should be looking for, so just let me know what you guys need to help me figure the value out.

    Thanks for all the help!
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  • resdead
    http://postimg.org/image/4kj8f5sqv/20160422_121921.jpg
    http://postimg.org/image/7txnlmguf/]20160422_122040.jpg
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  • resdead
    quote:Originally posted by Hawk Carse
    Is the actual barrel length secret?
    If less than 18", unless you can PROVE it is a pre 1899 antique AND positively show that a sawn off antique is not NFA regulated, nobody with any sense is going to mess with it.

    If you want to research it for your own satisfaction, take the barrels off and post the proof marks on the barrel and receiver flats.

    A Ward hammer gun, not sawn off, sold in England for 150 pounds ($215) in 2012.


    That's actually what I Was trying to get you guys to help me with... hence the leading questions about where to look for markings etc to identify the individual gun.

    Can anyone help me out in that regard? I'd like to determine if this is indeed sawn off and not an original coach-gun length. I'm not familiar with damascus guns, so I don't know.
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  • resdead
    [url]=http://postimg.org/image/z58a2nruv/[/URL]20160422_124718.jpg

    This is why I can't really tell (aside from being unfamiliar with these) - it looks cut to me because of the lack of petina on the ends compared to the outside, but theres no petina on the inside either.
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