converting Mauser 98 to 284 Winchester
how hard is it to convert a Mauser 98 chambered in 7x57
to 284 Winchester ?
is it as easy as just rechambering it with the reamer ?
the magazine accepts the shells
it seems the feed lips would have to be ground down and wider to feed smoothly.
the rim of shell while smaller, is still gripped by the bolt face
anyone here done it before ?
all replies appreciated, thanks
to 284 Winchester ?
is it as easy as just rechambering it with the reamer ?
the magazine accepts the shells
it seems the feed lips would have to be ground down and wider to feed smoothly.
the rim of shell while smaller, is still gripped by the bolt face
anyone here done it before ?
all replies appreciated, thanks
0
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Look at the chamber drawings.
The .284 is a 55mm case so the 7x57 neck and throat will not clean up. Does it matter? I don't know.0 -
Isn't 284 brass harder to come by than say 7mm-06 or 280 Rem. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Hawk Carse
Look at the chamber drawings.
The .284 is a 55mm case so the 7x57 neck and throat will not clean up. Does it matter? I don't know.
a 'smith would cut off some of the threaded shank on the 7x57 barrel, and rechamber it, rethread it, and set it back.
the oal of the 284 is shorter than the 7x57, you are correct, which makes me think it can be done. the barrel can be cut/set back 2mm or so, which is a very slight amount only .080" or so- then rechambered.0 -
quote:Originally posted by charliemeyer007
Isn't 284 brass harder to come by than say 7mm-06 or 280 Rem.
I think you mean 7mm-08 ?
yes and yes, the brass and loaded ammo is more scarce
just wondering if it can be done, it's an oddball obsolete caliber0 -
Years ago I had a Swiss Model 31 rifle. It was possible to reload 7.5 Swiss ammo using .284 Brass, because the body diameters were similar. Even though the .284 was a "rebated" cartridge, with a standard .473 rim diameter.
If you continue on with your project. You are going to have to have a skilled and knowledgeable gunsmith, open up the rails. To make sure the larger diameter .284 cartridges feed through the action. And the rims are secured behind the extractor, as the cartridges are fed up through the magazine. This is very important, as the mausers are controlled feed. Because the body diameter of the .284 is something like .025 greater in diameter. Than the standard Mauser cartridges.0 -
CaptainCrossman,
quote:...the brass and loaded ammo is more scarce
just wondering if it can be done, it's an oddball obsolete caliber
First, it is a cartridge not a caliber. Caliber specifies diameter while cartridge or cartridge case defines the actual container, bullet, primer and powder.
Second, the .284 Winchester is not obsolete at all. While you may have not heard of it for a while it is now considered by most F-Class shooters around the world to be one of the three top cartridges for that style of competition. The biggest drawback though has been Winchester's lack of desire and support to offer cases with a greater frequency except on the current 'seasonal' basis.
Competition shooters regularly take the highest quality brass made by Lapua in the 6.5x284 and open the necks up to accept the 7mm (.284") VLD bullets. Coming full circle, hunters who pay attention to such competitions, are returning to use the cartridge in longer range hunting rifles.
The poster you were responding to with your analysis WAS referring to the 7mm-06 or the .280 Remington cartridge. The .280 Rem. or the Ackley Improved version would certainly clean up the 7x57 Mauser chamber and then some including some of the chamber throat and leade. Either version would be a hunter's delight although you will need to have a newer designed bottom metal to avoid having to stretch the box on the original Mauser.
Yes, the rails will need modification as will the follower, feed ramp and box. The most tedious part of this process is timing the rising cartridge from the magazine so that the extractor can get a proper hold on the rim.
Gunsmiths with knowledge and experience with this conversion are not plentiful so you will need to do a careful search for those that are qualified to handle your project.
Best.0 -
I'm fairly sure a .280 (7mm06) would clean up all of the 7x57 chamber.The twist should be satisfactory-maybe even a little faster than factory .280.
The rim of the .284 is suitable for the current bolt face but there may be some feeding issues due to the short, fat case.
The problem with the .284 is the barrel would have to be set back about 1/4" which is going to eat up the shoulder that contacts the front of the receiver.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mobuck
I'm fairly sure a .280 (7mm06) would clean up all of the 7x57 chamber.The twist should be satisfactory-maybe even a little faster than factory .280.
The rim of the .284 is suitable for the current bolt face but there may be some feeding issues due to the short, fat case.
The problem with the .284 is the barrel would have to be set back about 1/4" which is going to eat up the shoulder that contacts the front of the receiver.
thank you for the useful information
I get it, you're calling the 280 a 7mm-06, but I didn't want to build a 280, cuz I bought one on an FN Mauser action brand new years ago. Just got around to scoping and firing it last fall 2015.
the setback 1/4", now that's the meaty info I was looking for.
a few months ago researched Mausers and how the various gunsmiths out there headspace them, and believe it or not, there's a large % of 'smiths who do not strive to tighten the barrel up on both the shoulder and the inside collar.
when rebarreling/customizing/wildcatting/rechambering the Mauser, about 75% of the 'smiths out there on the gunsmith message boards, tighten the barrel up on the internal collar, or on the outside shoulder, but not both. cuz its harder to hit both perfectly.
actually very few of them insist on hitting the collar and the shoulder simultaneously when tightening up the barrel. they are happy with either or.
I have a Mauser with a Springfield CMP barrel on it, 30-06, and that barrel has no shoulder at all, only tightened against the internal collar, and it shoot just fine and the barrel does not come loose. someone took a cmp barrel and threaded it for a Mauser large ring and made the rifle decades ago.
just thought I'd share that, and having seen and experienced it first hand, I wasn't too concerned about the collar being lost in machining.
actually the hardest part is trying to get some gunsmiths to think outside the box in this way. in reality the collar can be turned off the barrel, and the barrel will stay tight if torqued against the internal collar.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nononsense
CaptainCrossman,
quote:...the brass and loaded ammo is more scarce
just wondering if it can be done, it's an oddball obsolete caliber
First, it is a cartridge not a caliber. Caliber specifies diameter while cartridge or cartridge case defines the actual container, bullet, primer and powder.
YES I KNEW THAT, AGE 53 BEEN SHOOTING RIFLES, RELOADING, FOR 40 YEARS NOW. HAVE MY OWN RIFLE RANGE SINCE 1998, AND HAD QUITE A FEW REBARRELED, REBORED IN PAST. IT'S SLANG VERBAGE BUT PERHAPS YOU'RE SPLITTING HAIRS A BIT THERE ?
IN PA. WE ASK "WHAT CALIBER IS THAT RIFLE" OR "WHAT IS THAT CHAMBERED FOR??" , NOT "WHAT CARTRIDGE IS THAT RIFLE" ?? P-51 MUSTANGS HAD "50 CALIBER GUNS" JUST SAYING "7MM" ALWAYS MEANS 7X57 HERE. JUST LIKE A CAR HAS AN ENGINE, BUT EVERYONE CALLS IT A "MOTOR", WHEN IT'S NOT- CUZ IF YOU'RE GONNA SPLIT HAIRS, A MOTOR IS ELECTRIC. BUT NASCAR DRIVERS CALL IT A MOTOR ANYWAY- AND SO DO MOST DRIVERS- EVEN PENNDOT CALLS US "MOTORISTS" LEGALLY, IN THE "MOTOR CODE". NOT "ENGINISTS" OR "ENGINE CODE". CHILTON, ET. AL. HAVE "MOTOR REPAIR MANUALS". SO IN EFFECT CALIBER IS USED MORE OFTEN THAN CARTRIDGE. PERHAPS THE BEST MONIKER WOULD BE, "CHAMBERING". SEE ??
Second, the .284 Winchester is not obsolete at all. While you may have not heard of it for a while it is now considered by most F-Class shooters around the world to be one of the three top cartridges for that style of competition. The biggest drawback though has been Winchester's lack of desire and support to offer cases with a greater frequency except on the current 'seasonal' basis.
THAT'S WHAT I MEANT BY OBSOLETE, THEY DON'T RUN BRASS FOR IT ANYMORE LIKE THEY USED TO, AND NOT MANY OR ANY RIFLES CHAMBERED FOR IT NEW. SHELLS AREN'T $20/BOX AT WALMART LIKE 30-30 AND 30-06. A BOX OF 284 LOADED FROM MIDWAY IS $56 PLUS SHIPPING NOW. BY OBSOLETE I MEANT NOT EASILY OBTAINABLE OR ECONOMICAL LIKE THE MOST COMMON CENTERFIRES.
Competition shooters regularly take the highest quality brass made by Lapua in the 6.5x284 and open the necks up to accept the 7mm (.284") VLD bullets. Coming full circle, hunters who pay attention to such competitions, are returning to use the cartridge in longer range hunting rifles.
The poster you were responding to with your analysis WAS referring to the 7mm-06 or the .280 Remington cartridge. The .280 Rem. or the Ackley Improved version would certainly clean up the 7x57 Mauser chamber and then some including some of the chamber throat and leade. Either version would be a hunter's delight although you will need to have a newer designed bottom metal to avoid having to stretch the box on the original Mauser.
HONESTLY, NO ONE I KNOW, OR ANY BOOK I EVER READ IN MY LARGE GUN REFERENCE LIBRARY, CALLS A 280 A "7MM-06". NOT EVEN JACK O'CONNOR. THAT'S A REAL STRETCH. LOOK IT UP IN MIDWAY USA, IT'S A 280. REMINGTON CALLED IT A 280, THEY INVENTED IT. TECHNICALLY IT IS DERIVED FROM A 30-06, BUT CREATING YOUR OWN NAME FOR IT ?
EXAMPLE, THEY CALL A 25-06 A 25-06, AND IN REALITY, TECHNICALLY, IT'S A 25-03. IT'S BASED ON THE EARLY 30-03, NOT THE 30-06 THAT CAME LATER. BUT IF I WAS TO GO AROUND CALLING IT A 30-03 AND CORRECTING PEOPLE TO 30-03, THAT'S SPLITTING HAIRS AND STARTING NEW NOMENCLATURE, WHEN I HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH CREATING THE ROUND...IMHO IT'S BETTER TO JUST GO WITH THE INVENTOR'S NOMENCLATURE, WHAT EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS, AND NOT SPLIT HAIRS OVER TECHNICAL JARGON ?
IF YOU WANT TO GET HIGHLY TECHNICAL OVER A SIMPLE SUBJECT, I HAVE 2 DEGREES, AND CAN DO THAT. BUT IN MY OPINION THAT'S JUST BEING SILLY, AND PREFER NOT. IT COMES OFF AS TAKING ON AIRS, AND LIKE EINSTEIN SAID- ANYONE CAN COMPLICATE SOMETHING- IT TAKES A GENIUS TO SIMPLIFY IT.
Yes, the rails will need modification as will the follower, feed ramp and box. The most tedious part of this process is timing the rising cartridge from the magazine so that the extractor can get a proper hold on the rim.
Gunsmiths with knowledge and experience with this conversion are not plentiful so you will need to do a careful search for those that are qualified to handle your project.
Best
sorry for the red caps but wanted to address those minor misunderstandings first, typical of net communication rather than talking face to face or on the phone. I know quite well 7mm isn't obsolete. I have rifles 7x57, 7mm-08, 7mm rem mag, 280 rem already.
thanks much for more useful information.
I did drop a loaded 284 shell in another Mauser I have and the magazine accepted it and moving the bolt forward, it came up out of the magazine nicely and started to feed. but as we all know the top shell by itself always feeds easy on a rechambering. it's when they get stacked, jams start to happen, as the follower tension increases.
I have another Mauser 264 Magnum built on a military Nazi WWII action, and it would not hold more than 2 shells without jamming. whoever built it didn't open up the magazine length enough- and perhaps opened up the feed lips too far. once I lengthened mag space, the shells went in and came up easier, but 2 would fly out the first time instead of just one. cutting one leaf off the follower spring to reduce tension, I can now load 3 in the magazine and feed 3 ok, but it won't take 4. putting 4 in creates too much tension and causes a misfeed the first time- whoever opened up the feed rails opened it up too much so the shells tend to pop out if more than 3 are put in. and the angle of the shells at bullet tip are a bit high but it works.
being it was only $185 gun at local shop w/scope, it was still a great deal. but now I know why it was only $185. for the same reason the Greek Mannlicher Shoenauer I got at the same shop, rebarreled to 308 win, was only $85. that one still had the rotary mag set up for the original 6.5 round. it was a tack driver, but fixing that mag was like doing a sculture. I had to grind each slot for the 308 shell by hand and by eye, with a dremel, until a 308 would fit in each slot in rotary mag. then grind front of mag so bullet tips would not get stuck. when done it would feed all the shells smoothly- but it literally took days to fix.
so you are correct the feed rails, follower tension is critical and a touchy cut/try process...grinding a little at a time and trying again. someone with experience where to start the dimensional change from would be a great help, rather than grinding them too far.0 -
CaptainCrossman,
In no particular order, merely some additions to your attempted scholarly retort.
I realize that this too, is splitting hairs but there is no word:
Verbage:
Definitions
Sorry, no definitions found.
Etymologies
Sorry, no etymologies found.
The proper spelling is verbiage. Here is the Oxford explanation and I quote:
quote:Usage
The form verbage, formed without the 'i' on the pattern of words such as garbage, is sometimes used, but this is generally regarded as a mistake. Around five percent of citations in the Oxford English Corpus are for this incorrect spelling. See, even dictionaries can make mistakes...
Definition of verbiage in English:
noun
1 Speech or writing that uses too many words or excessively technical expressions.
2 US 'The way in which something is expressed; wording or diction: we need to look at how the rule should be applied, based on the verbiage.'
quote:IT'S SLANG VERBAGE BUT PERHAPS YOU'RE SPLITTING HAIRS A BIT THERE ?
No, I don't think that this is a case of 'splitting hairs'. Each term has a specific definition and neither crosses over or gets muddied up except by those choosing to use the wrong term. The colleges I attended insisted on using the correct terms when it comes to technical descriptions.
caliber:
2) The internal diameter or bore of a gun barrel: [in combination]: a .22 caliber repeater rifle
2.1) The diameter of a bullet, shell, or rocket.
2.2) The diameter of a circular body, such as a tube, blood vessel, or fiber.
cartridge:
1.1) A casing containing a charge and a bullet or shot for small arms or an explosive charge for blasting.
7mm-06:
And I quote:
quote:The 7mm-06 is a wildcat developed around 1950. As the name suggests the 7mm-06 is a 30-06 Springfield case necked down to 7mm, or .284. By design it is very similar to the 285 OKH and the 7mm-06 Mashburn. It is in the same class as the 280 Remington, but the later case will hold approx 2 grains more of powder.
And in addition to the above:
quote:The .280 Remington, also known as the 7mm Express Remington, was introduced in 1957 for the Remington model 740, 760, 721, and 725 rifles. The .280 is based on the .30-06 necked down to accept 7 mm (.284in) bullets, with the neck moved forward .050in (1.27mm). Original loadings were 125, 150 and 165 grain bullet weights.
quote:The 280 Remington rifle cartridge is based on the more popular 30-06 Springfield cartridge case necked down to accept .284" diameter bullets and very similar to a earlier wildcat cartridge the 7mm-06. Remington began producing the 280 Remington in 1957, later changing the name of the cartridge to the 7mm Express Remington in 1979, and still later Remington reintroduced the cartridge in a model 700 rifle and renamed the cartridge to 280 Remington again. The 280 Remington cartridge did not catch on in 1957 in the Remington rifle model 742. When the 280 Remington / 7mm Express cartridge was reintroduced in 1979 the one noticeable difference was the advertised velocity increased approximately 100 feet per second, this according to Remington was do to the use of slower burning powders that had been developed since the original 280 Remington cartridge was introduced in 1957.
Obsolete:
Definition of obsolete in English:
adjective
1) No longer produced or used; out of date.
You have simply made up your own definition to fit your needs in a discussion.
In point of fact, the brass cases are still made not only by Winchester but now Norma as well.
http://www.bullets.com/products/-284-Winchester-Brass-Cases-100-Count/BL11927
So the use of the term 'obsolete' is incorrect based on the above and not whether the prices go up by comparison.
I think that's fairly simple.
Best.0
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