Reloaded case necks splitting during storage?
Anyone ever seen such a thing???
30:06 hulls neck split while in the box and they are only 6 years old.
Been fired as factory round in gun then neck sized only.
Load is 150g sierra spritzer #2130 bullet
H4831SC 58.5g
OAL+ 3.20 inches
40 were reloaded in 2010 and when I went to inspect cases for hunting I seen a green corrosion on the brass necks and several of the brass necks were cracked. The green blue corrosion was readily visible in the cracks.
When I pulled the bullets the lead base of the bullets had the green blue corrosion. It kinda appeared maybe the corrosion had started at the bullet base and migrated to the neck of the brass case and expanded the case neck enough to crack. One of the split necks was vertical and slightly horizontal and the brass was very brittle on this one and flaked off (broke off instead of bending) when I pulled on it with a fingernail. After the case necks cracked the bullets were very loose in the neck which was too be expected. The reloads were stored in two plastic holder Federal OEM bullet boxes.
I know that the case necks were not cracked when I seated the bullets because I reload with a single stage press and can feel the neck tension on the bullets when I reload and a split neck will feel less resistance when seating the bullet.
Anyone ever hear of such?
30:06 hulls neck split while in the box and they are only 6 years old.
Been fired as factory round in gun then neck sized only.
Load is 150g sierra spritzer #2130 bullet
H4831SC 58.5g
OAL+ 3.20 inches
40 were reloaded in 2010 and when I went to inspect cases for hunting I seen a green corrosion on the brass necks and several of the brass necks were cracked. The green blue corrosion was readily visible in the cracks.
When I pulled the bullets the lead base of the bullets had the green blue corrosion. It kinda appeared maybe the corrosion had started at the bullet base and migrated to the neck of the brass case and expanded the case neck enough to crack. One of the split necks was vertical and slightly horizontal and the brass was very brittle on this one and flaked off (broke off instead of bending) when I pulled on it with a fingernail. After the case necks cracked the bullets were very loose in the neck which was too be expected. The reloads were stored in two plastic holder Federal OEM bullet boxes.
I know that the case necks were not cracked when I seated the bullets because I reload with a single stage press and can feel the neck tension on the bullets when I reload and a split neck will feel less resistance when seating the bullet.
Anyone ever hear of such?
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Just a thought, but since the corrosion is inside the cases; could it be your expanding die grease?
And, isn't the cartridge essentially airtight?
That would indicate that whatever happens is caused by the loading process.
You stated that you'd seen zipper bags of ammo with moisture inside, is it extraordinarily humid where you load?
Were the primers from the same lot? Have you cleaned your dies in the last year? Do your hands sweat a lot when you're loading?
I've got a bunch of .308 & 30-30 from 1991 that were made with 4831 that have no defects so far, and I have 300WM stuff from earlier than that, but they're full of H414.
Look in the holes in your loading block, there might be something there, or on the expander ball, that shouldn't be there.
Think about where you normally put the bullets when you're seating them; stand 'em up, lay 'em down, hold 'em in your hand, start the bullet in the loading block, it might help.0 -
quote:Originally posted by gunnut505
Just a thought, but since the corrosion is inside the cases; could it be your expanding die grease?
And, isn't the cartridge essentially airtight?
That would indicate that whatever happens is caused by the loading process.
You stated that you'd seen zipper bags of ammo with moisture inside, is it extraordinarily humid where you load?
Were the primers from the same lot? Have you cleaned your dies in the last year? Do your hands sweat a lot when you're loading?
I've got a bunch of .308 & 30-30 from 1991 that were made with 4831 that have no defects so far, and I have 300WM stuff from earlier than that, but they're full of H414.
Look in the holes in your loading block, there might be something there, or on the expander ball, that shouldn't be there.
Think about where you normally put the bullets when you're seating them; stand 'em up, lay 'em down, hold 'em in your hand, start the bullet in the loading block, it might help.
Thought of all of that. Only thing common to this mess is the H4831.
When I seen the moisture inside the zip lock bag with some shells some of the brass cases were split at the necks and the moisture was also in the powder and I seen signs of moist and glued together powder granules and blu/green in shells that were in paper and styrafoam shell boxes still indicating the H4831 was corroding and taking on moisture.
Several different calibers, several different primers, several different brass cases, reload in control environment inside, only thing common to all is H4831. No other powders show any signs of such.
Some of the H4831 reloads did not indicate any outside signs of blu/green until I pulled a bullet and examined. Could see blu/green just starting on the base of the copper jacketed bullets on some and powder granules just starting to weld together.
I've got some re-loads as old as yours or older with other [powders and no problems.
If you get a chance pull couple of your bullets and take a gander.
Maybe the guy that contacted Hodgdens about his H4350 (which I have several reloads of with no issues at all) will let us know the results. I gave up on trying to get a response or answer from Hodgdens and I just accepted the fact that it's MY reloads and I caused it, it's notnot factory stuff.0 -
the blue/green is the oxidation of the copper used in making the alloy brass, generally this is caused by environmental issues like extreme conditions but also a chemical reaction will cause oxidation.
I believe the 4831 chemical composition contains a chemical that either attacks that alloy type brass or you the manufacturer caused it by some type of additional chemical coming into contact with the 4831.
I would recommend better cleaning processes for your brass and/or possibly coating brass. I would also notify the powder maker.0 -
quote:Originally posted by pip5255
the blue/green is the oxidation of the copper used in making the alloy brass, generally this is caused by environmental issues like extreme conditions but also a chemical reaction will cause oxidation.
I believe the 4831 chemical composition contains a chemical that either attacks that alloy type brass or you the manufacturer caused it by some type of additional chemical coming into contact with the 4831.
I would recommend better cleaning processes for your brass and/or possibly coating brass. I would also notify the powder maker.
To me it appears to be similar to brass and copper being exposed to a chemical similar ammonia vapor.
Agree to a point:
Yes, the H4831 and I are common to all the corrosion seen on the brass and COPPER jacketed bullets. I've ruled out myself as the cause when I noticed no other powders have cause the corrosion of same type brass, bullets and primers.
As for the cleaning process of the brass for example. This reloading of the H4831 did not take place from just one batch of H4831 and the cleaning process of the brass is not the same over the years, for example I've used different brands and types cleaning media's in the lyman vibrator case cleaner brass and also cleaned using a ultrasonic and the corrosion also attacks new never fired brass straight from the manu, Remington, Winchester, Federal brass and Sierra and Hornady copper jacketed bullets.
Different reload over at least a 5 years span using different products, common thing is me and the H4831 and no corrosion of other reloads has taken place with any powder types.
I tried reaching out to Hodgdons by email and no response which was no surprise.
The corrosion is not from just one lot of H4831 ,several different one pound cannisters were used. That is the weak link in my re-loading data and one of the first things Hodgdons is going to ask, what is the lot number from the powder in question?
When it became one of my favorite reloading powders over a approx. 15 year span I quit logging the lot number from the one pound cannister into my reloading data. I did write the date that the reloads were prepared and the 1 pound canister was dated when I purchased and the powder cannister stored in a inside controlled environment and very seldom over 2 years old. I recently (couple weeks ago) found where I did log 2 different lots numbers of H4831 onto reloaded ammo boxes and both lots numbers indicated corroded ammo)
I now log the lot number of each reloading powder that I use into my load log book and onto the reloaded ammo. When I first started reloading I logged all the batch numbers from powders and primers per recommend3ed reloading procedures and finally I decided it appeared I was keeping too much info, just filling up the pages in my reloading log book. (I now see when re-loading you cannot log too much info because you might need such (batch and lot numbers) SEVERAL YEARS LATER.0 -
Okie 743 here is a follow up my buddy talked to the powder company last week . He gave them the info on the corrosion issues and the lot number from the one pound jug we had loaded some of the round s with . They acknowledged a problem with that lot number with one of the stabilizers going bad . They are sending us two pounds of new powder to use hope this helps 0 -
quote:Originally posted by pulsarnc
Okie 743 here is a follow up my buddy talked to the powder company last week . He gave them the info on the corrosion issues and the lot number from the one pound jug we had loaded some of the round s with . They acknowledged a problem with that lot number with one of the stabilizers going bad . They are sending us two pounds of new powder to use hope this helps
Thanks for the come back info.
So it was a one pound jug instead of a 8 lb jug. A 8lb jug was mentioned here in the ask experts section is why I referred to such.
https://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=708459
I've been using H4350 for several years and some of my NEW re-loads to replace the corrosive H4831 is H4350. I've never seen any evidence of any of my H4350 reloads being corrosive but I'll keep a heads up about such.
I'm little (pleasantly) surprised that the powder maker would admit to such. Stabilizers are added to reduce the effects of the powder becoming corrosive. After seeing the info at this link ammo should be inspected and heads up even on factory ammo. About half way thru this link stabilizers are mentioned quite often.
http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=157820
I could not trust any reloads with FREE H4831 powder if offered ever again after the very dangerous situation I experienced and I'll keep a closer eye on all future reloads and also start keeping lot numbers of all components in my log book for each rifle's reloads.0 -
Modern powders have lots of new components that extend life. Less copper fouling.
Most sites like Hodgdon/Alliant list the MSDS or SDS of there powders.
A good read. http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/McCord_gunpowder/0 -
quote:Originally posted by 243winxb
Modern powders have lots of new components that extend life. Less copper fouling.
Most sites like Hodgdon/Alliant list the MSDS or SDS of there powders.
A good read. http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature%20Articles/McCord_gunpowder/
Thanks for the info.
Bottom line: My powder went bad and we were lucky to not get injured.
Kinda appears the stabilizers became unstable.[:0]0
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