Trump releases his 2nd amendment stance
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quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
It has come down to Trump or Hillary.
How can anybody say they will not support either one?
Trump isn't perfect and I dislike much about him. But, if you don't vote for him, you cast half a vote for Hillary.
Are you kidding me?
Your perfect libertarian candidate may be out there, but he didn't make the World Series this year.
Sad folks are so narrow minded their only consideration is the 2nd amendment on their decisions. The democrat nominee failed at her secretary of state position.. failed miserably.. How the hell do you THINK she could even handle a higher position?0 -
So, Trump supporters and detractors alike are not happy with the current two party system.
The majority on both sides of this fence seem to believe they are trapped within this broken system.
Currently, the Libertarian Party candidate is polling a 11% nationally, when included in a Trump - Hilary - Johnson comparison. This is up by a factor of 10 from just 4 years ago.
If you are fed up with the two-party cabal, and are actually looking for a new direction for this country, 2016 may be the year to stick it to both the GOP and the Democrats and let them know that the growing Liberty movement is something that should be taken seriously.
Hitching your wagon to a woman who has been part of the problem for over 20 years, or a man who has bragged about being part of the establishment who worked within our corrupted system seems to be an odd way to express one's dissatisfaction with that system.
If you are stuck in the morass of 'Social Conservatism' whereby you want the Federal Government to exceed its Constitutional restraints through the legislation of social norms, you obviously cannot be a fan of either Clinton of Trump, so why not get past the labels and look at what true Liberty can be?
If you actually want a fiscally limited Federal Government that works within the constraints of the Constitution, you again cannot support the big Government decrees and positions advocated by Clinton and Trump.
So why pretend that either of the front runners offers anything different than more of the same?
If we start from a position of Constitutional adherence with a co-equal respect for the rights and freedoms of the individual, it is obvious that both Clinton and Trump are not to be considered.
Gary Johnson is as imperfect a human being as are we all, but it is impossible to ignore his record of respect for the limitation of the Constitution, and his respect for the rights and freedoms of the individual that are inherent as expressed in our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution.
You can wring your hands and pretend that a vote for Johnson is like a vote for Hilary, but it is, in fact, a vote for your children, grandchildren and the future of this country. Johnson is not a savior - far from it - but the work towards establishing the viability of a third party is our only hope to break the power of the two major parties and eventually moving this already Great Country back to when it was even greater.0 -
I respectfully disagree and submit that a vote for Johnson is nothing more than a vote for Hitlery, because Johnson (or any other "L") cannot and will not win, and voting for the loser in this way helps no one but the "D."
The "L" ls relevant only to the extent to which he siphons votes away from the "R" candidate, thereby tipping the scale toward the "D" candidate. As one who leans more toward "L" than "R", I don't like it, but these are the cold hard facts as I see them. The deck is stacked against us and we have 2 choices..."R" or the dreaded "D." quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
You can wring your hands and pretend that a vote for Johnson is like a vote for Hilary, but it is, in fact, a vote for your children, grandchildren and the future of this country.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
Trump keeps bragging how he has been supported by non Republicans like it is a good thing. What it has done, is corrupt the process by giving a result that does not necessarily reflect the will of the party. Wether one agrees with it or not, a majority support of non-republicans in a Republican primary car and perhaps should be ignored, particularly if the candidate does not support the traditional party platform.
I find it difficult to believe this is the position you would be taking if Ron Paul was the presumptive nominee.
And if it really is your position, why bother to have a primary at all? We could have save ourselves lots of trouble just by naming Jeb! the nominee right off the bat and rallying around him.0 -
I guess it boils down to one of two things. Either you see our path coming to a fork in the road, and although neither way seems great
you're going to vote for the path that looks the least destructive to the country. Or on the other hand, you're going to vote for what makes you feel good even though the fork only goes two ways, or just sit down on the trail and bitch because we're not getting anywhere.
PS. and the damn NRA wont do anything about it.[xx(]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
Trump keeps bragging how he has been supported by non Republicans like it is a good thing. What it has done, is corrupt the process by giving a result that does not necessarily reflect the will of the party. Wether one agrees with it or not, a majority support of non-republicans in a Republican primary car and perhaps should be ignored, particularly if the candidate does not support the traditional party platform.
I find it difficult to believe this is the position you would be taking if Ron Paul was the presumptive nominee.
And if it really is your position, why bother to have a primary at all? We could have save ourselves lots of trouble just by naming Jeb! the nominee right off the bat and rallying around him.
If I believed the presumptive nominee would respect the Constitution and believed in a Constitutionally limited Federal Government, it would be a different story, and I would probably support him, regardless of who he was.
This is not the case today. The people voted for candidates who advocated extra-constitutional positions in every election cycle in recent memory, and we are then stuck with them when the actual voting takes place in November. There is nothing legally binding about a primary election vote, and a party should retain the power to select who is to be their standard bearer, particularly when many of the votes and being placed by people that have never been and are not even now members of the party.
The primaries, as it seems many people are just figuring out, are where the party selects who it wants to represent it in the general. Primary votes do not matter in that sense, and suggesting they should ignores the very reason for the existance of a party and a party platform. Insisting that primary votes be legally binding sets up a scenario whereby 20% of the voting public can dictate who is going to voted upon for President.
One needs to ask if an uninformed 20% is really that much better than the party bosses of old. They might be, but given the last few cycles, there is room for doubt.0 -
quote:Originally posted by reload999
I respectfully disagree and submit that a vote for Johnson is nothing more than a vote for Hitlery, because Johnson (or any other "L") cannot and will not win, and voting for the loser in this way helps no one but the "D."
The "L" ls relevant only to the extent to which he siphons votes away from the "R" candidate, thereby tipping the scale toward the "D" candidate. As one who leans more toward "L" than "R", I don't like it, but these are the cold hard facts as I see them. The deck is stacked against us and we have 2 choices..."R" or the dreaded "D." quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
You can wring your hands and pretend that a vote for Johnson is like a vote for Hilary, but it is, in fact, a vote for your children, grandchildren and the future of this country.
If you are so concerned about these votes "taking away from the GOP candidate" then maybe you should pressure the GOP to proffer a candidate that supports liberty and freedom. Until you do, you're part of the problem with the GOP.0 -
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
It has come down to Trump or Hillary.
How can anybody say they will not support either one?
Trump isn't perfect and I dislike much about him. But, if you don't vote for him, you cast half a vote for Hillary.
Are you kidding me?
Your perfect libertarian candidate may be out there, but he didn't make the World Series this year.
Sad folks are so narrow minded their only consideration is the 2nd amendment on their decisions. The democrat nominee failed at her secretary of state position.. failed miserably.. How the hell do you THINK she could even handle a higher position?
+1 Yes, Sad that it has come to this.Without the Second Amendment, there can be no "Bill of Rights." My forefathers in Va.(Mother of Presidents)wrote often of the "Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms." Too late for me to change now,their blood is in my veins.PROUD NATIVE SON OF VIRGINIA.0 -
I never said I was "so concerned" over it; I was just stating what I believe to be facts...The fact is that either a democrap or a republican will win, and voting for the libertarian, even when that party more accurately reflects our beliefs, only serves to strengthen the position of the democrap against the only viable opposition.
Since the democrap is likely to be more opposed to our views than even a crappy republican choice would be, it makes no sense (to me) to vote for someone who will not win.
I don't need you to tell me what I should do, and I really don't much care whether you think I am "part of the problem with the GOP" whatever that's supposed to mean. quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by reload999
I respectfully disagree and submit that a vote for Johnson is nothing more than a vote for Hitlery, because Johnson (or any other "L") cannot and will not win, and voting for the loser in this way helps no one but the "D."
The "L" ls relevant only to the extent to which he siphons votes away from the "R" candidate, thereby tipping the scale toward the "D" candidate. As one who leans more toward "L" than "R", I don't like it, but these are the cold hard facts as I see them. The deck is stacked against us and we have 2 choices..."R" or the dreaded "D." quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
You can wring your hands and pretend that a vote for Johnson is like a vote for Hilary, but it is, in fact, a vote for your children, grandchildren and the future of this country.
If you are so concerned about these votes "taking away from the GOP candidate" then maybe you should pressure the GOP to proffer a candidate that supports liberty and freedom. Until you do, you're part of the problem with the GOP.0 -
Trump or Cruz lets get it over with and concentrate on defeating the democrat. Cruz reminds me of a snake oil salesman and trump reminds me of someone that will probably try and fix the mess. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by reload999
I respectfully disagree and submit that a vote for Johnson is nothing more than a vote for Hitlery, because Johnson (or any other "L") cannot and will not win, and voting for the loser in this way helps no one but the "D."
The "L" ls relevant only to the extent to which he siphons votes away from the "R" candidate, thereby tipping the scale toward the "D" candidate. As one who leans more toward "L" than "R", I don't like it, but these are the cold hard facts as I see them. The deck is stacked against us and we have 2 choices..."R" or the dreaded "D." quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
You can wring your hands and pretend that a vote for Johnson is like a vote for Hilary, but it is, in fact, a vote for your children, grandchildren and the future of this country.
If you truly believe that Trump is going to be a good President, by all means vote for him. I believe he would be a poor President; one would by his very words does not believe in Constitutional limitation upon Government, and by his deeds has proven to be part of the corruption that is our politics today. If you really want your grandchildren to be faced with the same failed candidates that the GOP and Democrats have presented year after year, by all means rally the troops behind Trump and be happy with the further degradation of your liberties and the further entrenchment of big government.
If you are in it for today and next year, maybe Trump would be better than Hilary. Time will tell.
If you are in it for your children and grandchildren, I suggest that it is time to support something outside the current power structure, accepting that in the short term we may suffer a little in the hopes that our grandchildren suffer less.
I personally have a problem with candidates who ignore and belittle through advocacy that which is enshrined in our Constitution. Doesn't really matter whether it is a Republican named Trump or a Democrat named Clinton. Supporting a candidate who advocates for extra-Constitutional actions is supporting the degradation of the Constitution, even if you agree with the position.
Just food for thought.0 -
quote:Originally posted by reload999
I never said I was "so concerned" over it; I was just stating what I believe to be facts...The fact is that either a democrap or a republican will win, and voting for the libertarian, even when that party more accurately reflects our beliefs, only serves to strengthen the position of the democrap against the only viable opposition.
Since the democrap is likely to be more opposed to our views than even a crappy republican choice would be, it makes no sense (to me) to vote for someone who will not win.
I don't need you to tell me what I should do, and I really don't much care whether you think I am "part of the problem with the GOP" whatever that's supposed to mean. quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by reload999
I respectfully disagree and submit that a vote for Johnson is nothing more than a vote for Hitlery, because Johnson (or any other "L") cannot and will not win, and voting for the loser in this way helps no one but the "D."
The "L" ls relevant only to the extent to which he siphons votes away from the "R" candidate, thereby tipping the scale toward the "D" candidate. As one who leans more toward "L" than "R", I don't like it, but these are the cold hard facts as I see them. The deck is stacked against us and we have 2 choices..."R" or the dreaded "D." quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
You can wring your hands and pretend that a vote for Johnson is like a vote for Hilary, but it is, in fact, a vote for your children, grandchildren and the future of this country.
If you are so concerned about these votes "taking away from the GOP candidate" then maybe you should pressure the GOP to proffer a candidate that supports liberty and freedom. Until you do, you're part of the problem with the GOP.
Ok, so then please clarify your position: are you not a voting republican that will support whichever candidate the GOP puts forth or what? Because you don't seem to be liberty minded and you don't appear to be helping to improve the system. Or are you just one of those who truly thinks that Trump would be a great president that thinks everything is fine and dandy?0 -
I guess we must all just depend upon you alone to be liberty minded and to improve the system.quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by reload999
I never said I was "so concerned" over it; I was just stating what I believe to be facts...The fact is that either a democrap or a republican will win, and voting for the libertarian, even when that party more accurately reflects our beliefs, only serves to strengthen the position of the democrap against the only viable opposition.
Since the democrap is likely to be more opposed to our views than even a crappy republican choice would be, it makes no sense (to me) to vote for someone who will not win.
I don't need you to tell me what I should do, and I really don't much care whether you think I am "part of the problem with the GOP" whatever that's supposed to mean. quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by reload999
I respectfully disagree and submit that a vote for Johnson is nothing more than a vote for Hitlery, because Johnson (or any other "L") cannot and will not win, and voting for the loser in this way helps no one but the "D."
The "L" ls relevant only to the extent to which he siphons votes away from the "R" candidate, thereby tipping the scale toward the "D" candidate. As one who leans more toward "L" than "R", I don't like it, but these are the cold hard facts as I see them. The deck is stacked against us and we have 2 choices..."R" or the dreaded "D." quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
You can wring your hands and pretend that a vote for Johnson is like a vote for Hilary, but it is, in fact, a vote for your children, grandchildren and the future of this country.
If you are so concerned about these votes "taking away from the GOP candidate" then maybe you should pressure the GOP to proffer a candidate that supports liberty and freedom. Until you do, you're part of the problem with the GOP.
Ok, so then please clarify your position: are you not a voting republican that will support whichever candidate the GOP puts forth or what? Because you don't seem to be liberty minded and you don't appear to be helping to improve the system. Or are you just one of those who truly thinks that Trump would be a great president that thinks everything is fine and dandy?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by reload999
I respectfully disagree and submit that a vote for Johnson is nothing more than a vote for Hitlery, because Johnson (or any other "L") cannot and will not win, and voting for the loser in this way helps no one but the "D."
The "L" ls relevant only to the extent to which he siphons votes away from the "R" candidate, thereby tipping the scale toward the "D" candidate. As one who leans more toward "L" than "R", I don't like it, but these are the cold hard facts as I see them. The deck is stacked against us and we have 2 choices..."R" or the dreaded "D." quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
You can wring your hands and pretend that a vote for Johnson is like a vote for Hilary, but it is, in fact, a vote for your children, grandchildren and the future of this country.
by all means rally the troops behind Trump and be happy with the further degradation of your liberties and the further entrenchment of big government
This is where your argument loses all credibility, at least with me. You talk about what he is going to do like you really know, and the truth is you have no clue if he is going to try to further degrade this country, in a way I think that's just what you want so you can say "See, I told you he was _________(fill in the blank).
I do however believe that you have convinced yourself that you are right, so what is the real use of a debate?0 -
I have never known a candidate to deviate significantly from their historical record in a mode that was more favorable to constitutional freedom. Can you point to such an individual? Why start from a vantage that includes a history that already disparages it? Nonsensical if you ask me. 0 -
I don't particularly want Trump or Cruze, but like I said before, the new prez will be either a "D" or an "R"." This is a FACT!
I cannot argue with the desire to vote "L" in an effort to foster liberty, but the fact (as I see it) is that this country will not elect a "L," and another "D" will probably be the final nail in the coffin of any degree of liberty (if it isn't already too late) so I will vote for the "R," whomever it is.0 -
Does anyone recall what the original topic was........oh ya "Trump releases his 2nd amendment stance" 0 -
quote:Originally posted by GuvamintCheese
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by reload999
I respectfully disagree and submit that a vote for Johnson is nothing more than a vote for Hitlery, because Johnson (or any other "L") cannot and will not win, and voting for the loser in this way helps no one but the "D."
The "L" ls relevant only to the extent to which he siphons votes away from the "R" candidate, thereby tipping the scale toward the "D" candidate. As one who leans more toward "L" than "R", I don't like it, but these are the cold hard facts as I see them. The deck is stacked against us and we have 2 choices..."R" or the dreaded "D." quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
You can wring your hands and pretend that a vote for Johnson is like a vote for Hilary, but it is, in fact, a vote for your children, grandchildren and the future of this country.
by all means rally the troops behind Trump and be happy with the further degradation of your liberties and the further entrenchment of big government
This is where your argument loses all credibility, at least with me. You talk about what he is going to do like you really know, and the truth is you have no clue if he is going to try to further degrade this country, in a way I think that's just what you want so you can say "See, I told you he was _________(fill in the blank).
I do however believe that you have convinced yourself that you are right, so what is the real use of a debate?
I am just taking Trump at his word, Mr. Cheese. I don't believe Trump will try to degrade this country at all, and have never stated such a silly thing. I do believe, from his words, that he does not have a strong belief in the Constitutional limitations place upon the Federal Government and that he does not believe in the individual liberties and freedoms those limitations protect.
If you don't wish to consider such a possibility, so be it. There is nothing Trump has ever stated that suggests to me he understands or even has read Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution, or the Bill of Rights for that matter. Not sure what your criteria are for a President, but I would think a good place to start is to have one who at least understands what he is affirming while take his oath of office.0 -
How an independent vote gets counted (for the bad at math):
GOP (Trump?): 0
DEM (Clinton?): 0
Indep (Johnson?): 1
Now, I went to public school so I may be bad at counting, but if you can, from those numbers explain to me how a Democrat gets a single vote from me, if I vote independent. I will be glad to have the correction.0 -
I think you trump haters are really latent anti ginger comb over haters. I think they need their on bathroom. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by dennisnielsen
Third party vote is a democratic vote plain and simple. Again, were you perfect you would know this already.
It's neither plain, nor simple how that happens. Use numbers... show me.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by dennisnielsen
Third party vote is a democratic vote plain and simple. Again, were you perfect you would know this already.
It's neither plain, nor simple how that happens. Use numbers... show me.
Really, you are going off on this a little to much for a Mr Perfect guy. You just trolling? or what..It is obvious that any other vote this year is just that, a vote for Hades. So, go ahead, and do it. It's your vote and my country that I don't want to see further destroyed .0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
I don't see the point in hand wringing about this. Trump has had an antigun stance when he didn't have anything on the line about it. Now that he's trying to appeal to conservative members of the Republican party he's all the sudden seen the light? Yeah, and pigs are gonna fly outta his butt.
But of course, as per usual with the GB sheep, let's wholly overlook the presently running candidate that has always supported Amendment 2, and even actually fought to defend it, proving FROM HIS LONG TRACK RECORD that he actually supports Amendment 2 as written, in favor of some political flip flopper. That fits right in with my expectations for the majority crowd here.[xx(][xx(]
I voted for him in 2012 and will vote for him again in 2016. Of course it doesn't matter, because I'm in CA .....0 -
Barry and Hillary are all chummy with each other cuting up at whatever dinner the clown-in-chump had,,,so yea, that's about all you need to know about the Swill. Birds of a feather,,stick together like dog dung on my shoe. 0 -
I do not trust The Donald. he has a L-O-N-G track record of changing stances to suit his own gain. He says what folks want to hear and when truly confronted his reactions are swift and childish. These are not traits I think would serve us well.
If Trump is the (R) nominee I will vote for the Conservative party available to me in the Ohio ballot, Constitution party or otherwise.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Grasshopper
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Perfect
quote:Originally posted by dennisnielsen
Third party vote is a democratic vote plain and simple. Again, were you perfect you would know this already.
It's neither plain, nor simple how that happens. Use numbers... show me.
Really, you are going off on this a little to much for a Mr Perfect guy. You just trolling? or what..It is obvious that any other vote this year is just that, a vote for Hades. So, go ahead, and do it. It's your vote and my country that I don't want to see further destroyed .
Huh? Honestly, your post makes no sense whatsoever. How am I trolling? Can you explain, with numbers, how voting works any other way than how I posted it? If so, post it up.0 -
I sure hope all of you have your house in order,regardless of who gets in the WH. I feel sad for those that can't see what is inevitably coming. 0 -
A vote for Hillary is one for losing your right to keep and bear arms...
A vote for anyone else is for your right[8]0 -
quote:Originally posted by dennisnielsen
You can lead a horse to water but the South bound end will always be attached.
What if you're leading it east?0 -
quote:Originally posted by bpost
I do not trust The Donald. he has a L-O-N-G track record of changing stances to suit his own gain. He says what folks want to hear and when truly confronted his reactions are swift and childish. These are not traits I think would serve us well.
If Trump is the (R) nominee I will vote for the Conservative party available to me in the Ohio ballot, Constitution party or otherwise.
a vote for anyone other than Trump will be the same thing as a vote for hilary in the long run since the others stand no chance at all.0
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