Pistol AR Questions.
I know there are some different regulations on the short barreled ARs. I want to know the easiest way to get a short barreled AR that if I would ever use it for self defense/home invasion I don't end up in trouble with the LEOs/Feds.
.223 or 9 MM?? I'm leaning towards the .223. I would think the .223 would be more reliable. Is it?? More pressure to cycle action was my thinking.
Any thoughts from anyone?? Knowledge is always a good thing!!
.223 or 9 MM?? I'm leaning towards the .223. I would think the .223 would be more reliable. Is it?? More pressure to cycle action was my thinking.
Any thoughts from anyone?? Knowledge is always a good thing!!
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For home defense, 9mm. For all-around versatility 223.
The 223 can penetrate walls much easier than the 9mm, especially in HP. But if you want something that can go beyond just home defense, then 223 gives you better range, although not sure of how much for a short barrel.0 -
Ten years ago a round thru a wall would have been a major consideration. With the kids moved out, no local grandkids in sight, wife, dogs and me all in the same bedroom at night, spackling compound can take care of the over penetration problem!![:D] 0 -
7.62x39 0 -
In my sales of receivers for home builds. The customer must state that they are building a pistol. That's the law here in PA state. We do not need to know caliber or barrel lenght. But once registered as a pistol its always a pistol. 0 -
Palmetto Armory sells AR pistol lowers 0 -
Home defense .. the 9mm is a much better choice.
A 223 is overkill in a house, muzzle flash and conclusive force can be a bit much indoors, and it will not just penetrate sheet rock, it can and will go through multiple walls/rooms and could easily go through outside walls with much more probability of doing unwanted/unneeded damage or injuries, then a 9mm.
9mm runs without a gas system, it is more pistol like in operation and any properly set up AR in 9mm whether as a pistol or rifle will function just as well as any good 9mm semi traditional handgun.
With an" arm" brace of your choice attached it is a very stable and effective self defense weapon that has virtually no recoil to deal with and is so easy to control.
A red/green dot sight and an attached light, good to go.
A glock mag. compatible unit can be used with any 10/15/17/33 round Glock 9 mm mag. so ammo capacity will not be an issue.0 -
.300 Black Out or .22 TCM. Since you're going short barrel.
Also I thought with a "pistol", barrel length didn't matter.0 -
I love my AR pistol...my home defense is primarily my .300 BLK..but I have several...two 5.56s and an AR9...the AR9 is alot of fun to shoot. 0 -
If a weapon like that is ever actually used for home defense, the bad guy's lawyer will have a field day! 0 -
"In my sales of receivers for home builds. The customer must state that they are building a pistol. That's the law here in PA state"
That may be a state "requirement" but it's NOT correct. On the 4473, stripped lowers are "OTHER" and any other description is questionable.
FWIW,
I have P(pistol SN)marked lowers to match all the under 16" barreled uppers I own. I've faced over-eager BATFE agents and know how they think so I'm not leaving anything to chance.0 -
quote:Originally posted by truthful
If a weapon like that is ever actually used for home defense, the bad guy's lawyer will have a field day!
Do you have some case study on the topic?0 -
quote:Originally posted by RobOz
quote:Originally posted by truthful
If a weapon like that is ever actually used for home defense, the bad guy's lawyer will have a field day!
Do you have some case study on the topic?
More like pulled it out of his ass...."a weapon like that"....if the shooting is justified, the firearm used is irrelevant, and everything I own is legal.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mobuck
"In my sales of receivers for home builds. The customer must state that they are building a pistol. That's the law here in PA state"
That may be a state "requirement" but it's NOT correct. On the 4473, stripped lowers are "OTHER" and any other description is questionable.
FWIW,
I have P(pistol SN)marked lowers to match all the under 16" barreled uppers I own. I've faced over-eager BATFE agents and know how they think so I'm not leaving anything to chance.
Exactly, a rifle lower only becomes a rifle lower when a rifle barreled action is attached, until then even a complete lower with rifle stock is still only a receiver under ATF regulations.0 -
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
quote:Originally posted by Mobuck
"In my sales of receivers for home builds. The customer must state that they are building a pistol. That's the law here in PA state"
That may be a state "requirement" but it's NOT correct. On the 4473, stripped lowers are "OTHER" and any other description is questionable.
FWIW,
I have P(pistol SN)marked lowers to match all the under 16" barreled uppers I own. I've faced over-eager BATFE agents and know how they think so I'm not leaving anything to chance.
Exactly, a rifle lower only becomes a rifle lower when a rifle barreled action is attached, until then even a complete lower with rifle stock is still only a receiver under ATF regulations.
Also if they have ever been used as a Pistol lower they cannot be converted to a rifle. I could be wrong on this but seem to remember reading about this.0 -
So if I have an existing unused lower and I buy a 9 MM upper and mate the two do I or don't I have a potential problem??
I might think so many of the BATF regulations are total BS but I REALLY, REALLY don't want any government agency descending on me like a ton of bricks. That is a problem I do not need!!!!!0 -
Nope, you're good to go. Just do not ever put a butt stock on it along with a barrel shorter than 16 inches. 0 -
The lower I have to put a 9 MM upper on looks like this.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-ar-15-complete-moe-shockwave-pistol-lower-no-magazine-gry-516447178.html
If I get a 9 MM upper, am I good to go??0 -
I should add that I know I need a 9 MM lower but I am concerned with the collapsible stock. If the collapsible stock with a 10 inch barreled 9 MM upper is a problem I'm going to have to rethink my plans.
Of all the things I have lost in the last 4 years since my stroke I really miss my mind the most!! So have pity on an old fart and explain in a very easy to understand fashion!![:D]0 -
I should add that I know I need a 9 MM lower but I am concerned with the collapsible stock. If the collapsible stock with a 10 inch barreled 9 MM upper is a problem I'm going to have to rethink my plans.
Of all the things I have lost in the last 4 years since my stroke I really miss my mind the most!! So have pity on an old fart and explain in a very easy to understand fashion!![:D]0 -
Nope, you are good to go. That is not a "stock", it is a brace. That baby is a pistol lower, put as short of barrel as you want. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by RobOz
quote:Originally posted by truthful
If a weapon like that is ever actually used for home defense, the bad guy's lawyer will have a field day!
Do you have some case study on the topic?
Probably the same case study that says if you open carry you'll be the first target.0 -
quote:Originally posted by grumpygy
quote:Originally posted by shilowar
quote:Originally posted by Mobuck
"In my sales of receivers for home builds. The customer must state that they are building a pistol. That's the law here in PA state"
That may be a state "requirement" but it's NOT correct. On the 4473, stripped lowers are "OTHER" and any other description is questionable.
FWIW,
I have P(pistol SN)marked lowers to match all the under 16" barreled uppers I own. I've faced over-eager BATFE agents and know how they think so I'm not leaving anything to chance.
Exactly, a rifle lower only becomes a rifle lower when a rifle barreled action is attached, until then even a complete lower with rifle stock is still only a receiver under ATF regulations.
Also if they have ever been used as a Pistol lower they cannot be converted to a rifle. I could be wrong on this but seem to remember reading about this.
You have it backwards...a pistol lower can be used as a rifle lower, but a lower that is first used as a rifle lower, or leaves the manufacturer as a rifle can not be lawfully changed to a pistol.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dreher
I should add that I know I need a 9 MM lower but I am concerned with the collapsible stock. If the collapsible stock with a 10 inch barreled 9 MM upper is a problem I'm going to have to rethink my plans.
Of all the things I have lost in the last 4 years since my stroke I really miss my mind the most!! So have pity on an old fart and explain in a very easy to understand fashion!![:D]
An AR with a collapsible stock and short barrel would make it an SBR. An AR pistol with a collapsible pistol brace, ie. the SB PDW brace pictured below, is perfectly legal. Terminology is important here, stock = rifle, brace = pistol. Pistols have braces, not stocks....[;)]
SB SBA3 collapsible brace0 -
Shilo has already corrected most misconceptions, but it's as simple as this,...........
Any 'virgin' stripped lower can be turned into a pistol, OR a rifle. Once a rifle is built on a virgin lower, it is always and forever a rifle.
If you build a virgin lower into a pistol, it can be changed back and forth from pistol to rifle as many times as you wish. You must observe a certain order to your assembly/disassembly though (common sense).
It's not that hard.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 35 Whelen
Probably the same case study that says if you open carry you'll be the first target.
Hey now, that's a popular line here on GBGD![;)]0 -
Just curious for you guys with braces...do you carry any manufacturer paperwork to the range?
When taking my Palmetto lower with an SBA3 collapsible brace through the transfer process my FFL thought having the paperwork with would help in case of an un-knowledgeable law enforcement officer who thinks it's a SBR.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dreher.223 or 9 MM?? I'm leaning towards the .223. I would think the .223 would be more reliable. Is it?? More pressure to cycle action was my thinking. I am only going by an old magazine article but I don't believe the pistol caliber ARs are gas operated. They are blowback operated.
The pictures in the article seemed to show no gas entry port and no rotating bolt head.
The designer could make a blowback bolt as light as they wanted to in order to get as much power into it as the design needed.
Hypothetically though, if it was gas operated, a designer could just move the gas port closer to the action or make it larger or both in order to ensure they got enough reliability. Look at an M1 Carbine. The gas port is only a few inches in front of the receiver because of the pistol-like design of the cartridge.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Krony
Just curious for you guys with braces...do you carry any manufacturer paperwork to the range?
When taking my Palmetto lower with an SBA3 collapsible brace through the transfer process my FFL thought having the paperwork with would help in case of an un-knowledgeable law enforcement officer who thinks it's a SBR.
Couldn't hurt, most cops are not "gun people" and are highly ignorant of gun laws. I bet if I polled most cops that I know, less than 20% even know what an SBR is...let alone a pistol brace. They will likely know even less about Federal laws versus their own state laws.0 -
quote:Originally posted by SoreShoulder
quote:Originally posted by dreher.223 or 9 MM?? I'm leaning towards the .223. I would think the .223 would be more reliable. Is it?? More pressure to cycle action was my thinking. I am only going by an old magazine article but I don't believe the pistol caliber ARs are gas operated. They are blowback operated.
The pictures in the article seemed to show no gas entry port and no rotating bolt head.
The designer could make a blowback bolt as light as they wanted to in order to get as much power into it as the design needed.
Hypothetically though, if it was gas operated, a designer could just move the gas port closer to the action or make it larger or both in order to ensure they got enough reliability. Look at an M1 Carbine. The gas port is only a few inches in front of the receiver because of the pistol-like design of the cartridge.
Every pistol caliber AR I've seen is blow back.0 -
"Just curious for you guys with braces...do you carry any manufacturer paperwork to the range?"
I don't go to "the range"("the range" is just past my yard gate) but I/we carry miniaturized copies of NFA tax stamp(s) and NFA OK for the brace when we hunt off the homestead farm.
Nothing ruins a day of hunting like being hassled by an arrogant, poorly informed LEO.
"Every pistol caliber AR I've seen is blow back."
I've heard/read of a gas operated 10MM but haven't actually seen/handled one. Otherwise all the pistol caliber AR's I've encountered have been blow back with a heavier than normal(5-5.5 ounce) buffer.0
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