Engineers
At work I fill the spot of an Engineer.
One of the guys at work mentioned to me No Offense to you but engineers suck. We are dealing with an Engineer from another company. He wants the cheapest part possible while holding ridiculous tolerances.
I looked at the other guy in the room and asked him. Did I not just say the same thing to you yesterday Engineers have no Idea how to design a part. Way too many steps.
My Motto KISS.
This guy is so hard headed its not funny. I drew up a part and showed where it would not work. But we had to go ahead an build it just to show it would not work. See what he says when he gets the part.
One of the guys at work mentioned to me No Offense to you but engineers suck. We are dealing with an Engineer from another company. He wants the cheapest part possible while holding ridiculous tolerances.
I looked at the other guy in the room and asked him. Did I not just say the same thing to you yesterday Engineers have no Idea how to design a part. Way too many steps.
My Motto KISS.
This guy is so hard headed its not funny. I drew up a part and showed where it would not work. But we had to go ahead an build it just to show it would not work. See what he says when he gets the part.
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Everything is a trade off.
You have to meet the requirement, then you have to be able to build the damn thing, then you have to be able to test & inspect it & show that it meets the requirements.
I really wish most engineers started life as assemblers or shop floor production people before they became design engineers.
I cant tell you how many times a week I ask ?Have you talked to anyone on the shop floor yet??0 -
quote:Originally posted by Warbirds
Everything is a trade off.
You have to meet the requirement, then you have to be able to build the damn thing, then you have to be able to test & inspect it & show that it meets the requirements.
I really wish most engineers started life as assemblers or shop floor production people before they became design engineers.
I cant tell you how many times a week I ask ?Have you talked to anyone on the shop floor yet??
That is it exactly. I have worked on the shop floor. I have busted my Knuckles and asked what engineer thought this was a good way to build it.
Now that I design these fittings I have a chance to do it right. Still just a Drafter.0 -
When I was an engineering technician I learned quickly to go to the people on the floor when the boss wanted something changed.
Made their lives easier and kept the boss thinking he was really smart for hiring me when most of the time it was just common sense[:D]0 -
A cute young blonde gal once told me that with our modern technology, ENGINEER'S would no longer be needed. Trains can run just fine remotely all by themselves![:D][:0] 0 -
We had a process at work called ? Management of Change?.
A piece of that was that when an engineering change was made, due diligence was performed and documented.
For instance, if production wanted to add a limit switch to tell when a vat was going to over flow, drawings were changed, etc.
The folks who were most resistant to follow the MOC were the engineers.
?Just make it work?.
When an engineer was promoted to management, they forgot everything they learned in school.0 -
There are good and bad in all professions.
One problem we see with new engineers is as noted, the lack of manufacturing experience which can result in concepts that are not doable.
Designers have the same issues when green, and need additional guidance so far as strength of materials, available materials, manufacturing methods, etc.
I would caution those that belief the shop floor is the be-all and end-all of what should or should not be done. As with most folks, the fabricators and assemblers rely on past experience, and too much reliance upon their input can result in stagnation and lack of innovation.
Having been in manufacturing for over 30 years, I can guarantee that everyone has their issues and their strengths. There have been many times I have had to tell production guys to follow the print over objection. Most of the time I have been correct, but obviously there have been times when I was wrong. Anyone from the conceptual stage through engineering, design, drafting, and manufacturing who believes they know it all is someone that has lost much of his value as employee.
Good engineers know how to engineer a part and are open to input.
Good designers know how to design a part and are open to input.
Good fabricators and machinists know their craft and are open to input.
Dismissing input from any of the above is counterproductive, regardless of how much one thinks they know.0 -
We had a saying...
There comes a time when you have to shoot the engineers and get on with production..0 -
yepper...how many pieces of farm machinery i have owned designed by those that have NEVER seen dirt 0 -
There was a new farm implement company started making offset disc plows back when I was farming with my dad. We also had a welding shop to do our own repairs and sometimes kept a welder busy.
Once day we got a call from a farmer that had bought one of those new offset discs. It seems there were a few broken welds.
Took the welder most of a day just to weld it back together enough they could drag it out of the field to the junk pile![xx(]0 -
It was architects we had the most problem with. They could draw beautiful pictures but had no idea how it was going to be built. 0 -
PS this is not a Young engineer. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
There are good and bad in all professions.
One problem we see with new engineers is as noted, the lack of manufacturing experience which can result in concepts that are not doable.
Designers have the same issues when green, and need additional guidance so far as strength of materials, available materials, manufacturing methods, etc.
I would caution those that belief the shop floor is the be-all and end-all of what should or should not be done. As with most folks, the fabricators and assemblers rely on past experience, and too much reliance upon their input can result in stagnation and lack of innovation.
Having been in manufacturing for over 30 years, I can guarantee that everyone has their issues and their strengths. There have been many times I have had to tell production guys to follow the print over objection. Most of the time I have been correct, but obviously there have been times when I was wrong. Anyone from the conceptual stage through engineering, design, drafting, and manufacturing who believes they know it all is someone that has lost much of his value as employee.
Good engineers know how to engineer a part and are open to input.
Good designers know how to design a part and are open to input.
Good fabricators and machinists know their craft and are open to input.
Dismissing input from any of the above is counterproductive, regardless of how much one thinks they know.
Well said Don.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Smitty500mag
It was architects we had the most problem with. They could draw beautiful pictures but had no idea how it was going to be built.
AMEN!![:(!][:(!][:(!] 99% that I've worked with had some kind of God complex and believed that just because they could draw it then it should be able to be built.[xx(]0 -
Will say its been much easier since the Engineer we had retired.
Except when they want me to certify a product will hold a certain pressure. I just remind them that was what they had an Engineer on staff for all these years.0 -
You can tell an engineer, just can't tell him much! Don 0 -
Try walking a mile in the engineer's shoes. Most designs are a compromise. Before he designed the part that you have to build, he was told by management or the accountants how much he was allowed to spend, and when it needed to be completed. Then he designed something that would hopefully meet the need within those budget and time constraints. Good fabricators with field experience see themselves as part of the team and will suggest changes before starting construction. The engineer shouldn't have to ask. If they clam up and build the original design, when doesn't work, it is 100% the engineer's fault with everybody else pointing fingers. 0 -
KISS
That is a great principle of engineering. I know whereof I speak because I spent 6 long months at the third best engineering school in the country, Georgia Tech. I knew I was in trouble, one night, I was sitting at my desk studying, in my third floor dorm room, I casually lit a cherry bomb and tossed it out the window without looking.
Almost hit the Dean of Students! Landed at his feet.
What the hell was he doing walking around my dorm at 10pm? With 2 campus cops in company? They thought a Rat was trying to do a hit on the Dean. (A Tech freshman is called a Rat.) Hell I didn't know the damn dean was out there I didn't even look.
In two minutes I had two big campus cops knocking on my door, hell, they almost put the cuffs on me! I had a lot of 'splainin to do.
Anyway I left after 2 quarters just before I would have got kicked out. Had a 1.7 average. I was a Hell of an Engineer.
But I have done a lot of engineering, in building 4 log cabins turn key from scratch and other endeavors.
And I have learned, simpler is always better than complicated.0 -
As a glorified grease monkey, (Field Millwright) I cuss design engineers on a daily basis. I REALLY wish they had to work on and service some of their abortions. 0 -
Speaking as a Mechanical Engineer who has worked with countless other Engineers, I will admit that most engineers are a pain in the butt - I wouldn't go as high as 99% though, maybe just 60%.
Getting through Engineering school is a good thing, but it isn't easy. And when you get out of school, you should have the tools it takes to be a good engineer, but most are going to have zero experience using those tools in the real world. And then the most common way to acquire the rest of what you need to know is 'OJT'. Sometimes that works out well, sometimes it doesn't. Really depends on the company and their understanding of engineers.
Honestly, the best engineers I ever knew were (poor)farm boys, gear heads or guys who'd had some exposure to a machinist. These guys all had some experience, in addition to college, with how mechanical stuff works, how it fails, why and how to fix it - prior to becoming an engineer.
The worst engineers I ever knew were those who had zero mechanical aptitude, prior to becoming an engineer. They were simply good at math and physics. They had some of the best tools a college education can give. But college can't show you how to use those tools.
But I will say that Engineers as a whole would love to develop and provide the most robust, excellent, state of the art, part-piece-machine-thingy ever made.
But then all of the constraints get thrown into the mix and you end up with something that works - just barely.
Oh and then there is the pressure to get things done on time, in budget. You will, or someone else will. And if you don't, your services may not be needed - and it doesn't matter if you were dealt a loosing hand to begin with. You're an engineer, you can handle it.
In my experience, very much a 'what have you done for me lately' profession.0 -
I work with some great electrical engineers
especially when they are on sight and see the work being done0 -
quote:
I work with some great electrical engineers
Before I retired as an electronics tech at the post office I had to follow a guy who had an electrical engineering degree, who worked as a tech on the shift before me. Probably because he graduated at the bottom of his class and couldn't make money anywhere else. He had no idea how things work. I came into work one night and was told that a large sorting machine had been down for hours. This guy told me it was tripping a circuit breaker, so he changed the breaker. These breakers are marked with component names. When I asked him why he changed the breaker he said "I had to do something, and I didn't know what else to do". We had a library of manuals for every machine in the building. Turned out a vacuum pump had broken a carbon vane and locked up the pump. (And that particular breaker was labeled "Black Vacuum") Took about 20 minutes to get new vanes from parts, pull the pump apart and vacuum out the debris and put it back together. And this guy was literally screaming at me that I was somehow an a-hole for asking him why he couldn't figure that out.
When I got home the next morning and told my wife that story her response was "So, when a light doesn't come on at his house the first thing he does is change the switch"?0 -
quote:Originally posted by alias
quote:
I work with some great electrical engineers
Before I retired as an electronics tech at the post office I had to follow a guy who had an electrical engineering degree, who worked as a tech on the shift before me. Probably because he graduated at the bottom of his class and couldn't make money anywhere else. He had no idea how things work. I came into work one night and was told that a large sorting machine had been down for hours. This guy told me it was tripping a circuit breaker, so he changed the breaker. These breakers are marked with component names. When I asked him why he changed the breaker he said "I had to do something, and I didn't know what else to do". We had a library of manuals for every machine in the building. Turned out a vacuum pump had broken a carbon vane and locked up the pump. (And that particular breaker was labeled "Black Vacuum") Took about 20 minutes to get new vanes from parts, pull the pump apart and vacuum out the debris and put it back together. And this guy was literally screaming at me that I was somehow an a-hole for asking him why he couldn't figure that out.
When I got home the next morning and told my wife that story her response was "So, when a light doesn't come on at his house the first thing he does is change the switch"?
I have done a fair amount of electrical wiring in homes. I know my way around a distribution panel and other various electrical "things".
Anyway, I have an occupancy sensor controlling the lights in our bathroom. There is also a switch to control the lights above the mirror. Both devices share the same box.
I walk into the bathroom and the lights to not come on. Great! They don't make occupancy switches like they used to - and I have replaced more than a few in my time.
I go to the basement to get my "electrical bag" and proceed to remove the sensor. I don't have one on hand, but I do have a normal single pole switch, so I am forced to use it. Hmmmmmmmm? That's odd still no light. Shoot! I should have checked the breaker, when I was in the basement getting my "electrical bag". OK, back to the basement to check the breaker. None tripped.
Back upstairs to the bathroom. I wonder why I did not think of checking for voltage using my multimeter (which, of course, is in my "electrical bag")? Oh well, get the multimeter out of the bag and check the voltage. OK, I have 120 volts. What else could it possibly be?
I wonder . . . . What are the chances of that happening? Well, why not check that to?
Yep, the bulb was burnt out. [:I]0 -
[:D]
I have to remind myself often KISS keep it simple stupid0 -
quote:Originally posted by US Military Guy
quote:Originally posted by alias
quote:
I work with some great electrical engineers
Before I retired as an electronics tech at the post office I had to follow a guy who had an electrical engineering degree, who worked as a tech on the shift before me. Probably because he graduated at the bottom of his class and couldn't make money anywhere else. He had no idea how things work. I came into work one night and was told that a large sorting machine had been down for hours. This guy told me it was tripping a circuit breaker, so he changed the breaker. These breakers are marked with component names. When I asked him why he changed the breaker he said "I had to do something, and I didn't know what else to do". We had a library of manuals for every machine in the building. Turned out a vacuum pump had broken a carbon vane and locked up the pump. (And that particular breaker was labeled "Black Vacuum") Took about 20 minutes to get new vanes from parts, pull the pump apart and vacuum out the debris and put it back together. And this guy was literally screaming at me that I was somehow an a-hole for asking him why he couldn't figure that out.
When I got home the next morning and told my wife that story her response was "So, when a light doesn't come on at his house the first thing he does is change the switch"?
I have done a fair amount of electrical wiring in homes. I know my way around a distribution panel and other various electrical "things".
Anyway, I have an occupancy sensor controlling the lights in our bathroom. There is also a switch to control the lights above the mirror. Both devices share the same box.
I walk into the bathroom and the lights to not come on. Great! They don't make occupancy switches like they used to - and I have replaced more than a few in my time.
I go to the basement to get my "electrical bag" and proceed to remove the sensor. I don't have one on hand, but I do have a normal single pole switch, so I am forced to use it. Hmmmmmmmm? That's odd still no light. Shoot! I should have checked the breaker, when I was in the basement getting my "electrical bag". OK, back to the basement to check the breaker. None tripped.
Back upstairs to the bathroom. I wonder why I did not think of checking for voltage using my multimeter (which, of course, is in my "electrical bag")? Oh well, get the multimeter out of the bag and check the voltage. OK, I have 120 volts. What else could it possibly be?
I wonder . . . . What are the chances of that happening? Well, why not check that to?
Yep, the bulb was burnt out. [:I]
Troubleshooting 101.[:I]
If not obvious, start with the easiest fix and work towards the most complicated.
Was chasing what I thought was a floating neutral through a fairly large electrical panel one evening during a machine start up. One of those where the system worked for a while and stopped for no reason. Had a good feel for what the problem was, but every wire was tight and properly isolated.
Finally went in and checked the neutral jumpers on the terminals. Yes, one was not fully tight. Made contact 99.9% of the time. When contact was lost, it would stop the process, but immediately make contact again, effectively erasing whatever clues one had for tracking it down.
Hours spent tracking down the one loose screw out of 500.0 -
I spent the last 33 years of my career as an electrician at a tire manufacturing plant. Over the years, I have worked with some really BAD electrical and mechanical engineers who had the "my way or the highway" attitude. Their projects usually went over budget and time limits. On the other hand, I also worked with some who would listen to and ask for suggestions from the folks actually doing the work. They were mostly a pleasure to deal with, and the project ran smoothly.
The last 6 years I worked there, I worked directly under one of the best electrical engineers I could hope to have. He would bring my partner and me a plan for a new piece of equipment or an update to an older machine. We always had input on the project, and almost every time we completed it on time and over the years saved many thousands of $$$ for the company (the engineer's words, not mine). I almost hated to retire! ALMOST! [8D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
Troubleshooting 101.[:I]
If not obvious, start with the easiest fix and work towards the most complicated.
. . . snip
I did start with the easiest.
The "electrical bag" was in the basement.
The ladder was out in the garage.
[:D]0 -
quote:Good fabricators with field experience see themselves as part of the team and will suggest changes before starting construction. The engineer shouldn't have to ask. If they clam up and build the original design, when doesn't work, it is 100% the engineer's fault with everybody else pointing fingers.
There are normally checks and balances in engineering.
I worked as an engineering checker in the defense industry for the last 30+ yr of my working career. Most defense contracts stipulate reviews by qualified checkers, even the F-35 program.
A checker has to review and analyze every design the engineers and designers produce before it goes to production. We are where the buck stops.
When something goes wrong and the finger pointing and blame storming starts, it?s usually directed at the checkers. It didn?t happen often but I?ve had to take my lumps a couple of times over the years when I missed something.
Nobody likes to be told they made a mistake but sooner or later, everyone does. I didn?t mind working with the seasoned engineers because they understood how the system works but dealing with junior engineers and lower level designers could be a constant battle because of the fragile egos involved.
I found it amusing that back in the days when everyone worked on a drawing board and changing or redrawing anything was more difficult, there was very little resistance to changing something. These days, however, when all drawings are computer generated and changes or revisions are MUCH simpler, the designers and junior engineers fight tooth and nail trying to avoid having to make corrections to their ?masterpieces?.
Checkers normally win these ?battles? but once in a blue moon, a June Bride (recent engineering graduate) will whine and snivel enough to convince the management to override the checker?s corrections. The last time that happened to me was at Hughes Aircraft (now Raytheon) when I refused to sign off on a modification they wanted to make to a printed circuit card in the Phoenix missiles because the mod was not IAW Mil Stds. Management overrode my objections and proceeded with the mod. All went well for about 4 months until the Navy came in and shut down the entire Phoenix production line because of the mod I wouldn?t accept. I fought far fewer battles after that incident. I didn?t even have to say ?I told you so?.
I often consulted with manufacturing when any grey areas were encountered. Their hands-on experience was invaluable and having manufacturing on your side was a good thing if you had to argue your case.0 -
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quote:Originally posted by Warbirds
I like it [:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Warbirds
[:D][:D]0
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