Looking at Muzzle loaders
I am looking at them here in GB and come across this:
https://www.GunBroker.com/item/787386904
How can anyone even believe this is in the spirit of Primitive weapons hunts?
I am not knocking it but..........................come on this is ridiculous.
A 275gr bullet at 3100fps.............That is better than a 340 Weatherby.
It has to use smokless powder because there is no way BP or a sub could do that.
What do yall Think?
My Opinion is should not be used except during regular gun season. IMO a Primitive weapon is either a Bow and arrow, spear,knife, hatchet/tomahawk, Atlatl, sling, some crossbows and BP rifle with exposed ignition and iron sights, loaded from the front with BP or a substitute(And I really don't like that).
flame on[;)]
https://www.GunBroker.com/item/787386904
How can anyone even believe this is in the spirit of Primitive weapons hunts?
I am not knocking it but..........................come on this is ridiculous.
A 275gr bullet at 3100fps.............That is better than a 340 Weatherby.
It has to use smokless powder because there is no way BP or a sub could do that.
What do yall Think?
My Opinion is should not be used except during regular gun season. IMO a Primitive weapon is either a Bow and arrow, spear,knife, hatchet/tomahawk, Atlatl, sling, some crossbows and BP rifle with exposed ignition and iron sights, loaded from the front with BP or a substitute(And I really don't like that).
flame on[;)]
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I do just fine shooting my self built flintlocks, real black powder, and a lead round ball.[:)]
Primitive sights still take all the venison my Mrs. and I can eat every year so far!
That Sivorski (sp) scope adds most of the cost to that pictured auction.0 -
not worth 4 grand in my eyes, but to each their own...... 0 -
When I was hunting I hunted during primitive season with a Lyman GPR 54 cal flintlock I made from a kit.
I got a better lock for it after a few years and its been my Hunting rifle for over 40 years.
It harvested Elk, White tail,Prong horns, Muleys, Black Bears and Blacktail. I have shot a mess of other stuff with it and it has only failed to fire hunting once and that was my fault.
I used go to CO and hunt BP season Elk. They had rules on the guns as did LA and GA.
I have a .72cal flint trade musket replica too. It is a turkey killing machine.0 -
Sam, I posted a few pictures over in the muzzle loading forum quite a while ago showing off one of my new builds, a 60 caliber flintlock jaeger style rifle with a curly ash stock.
Hoping to drop bambi this year without having to cross property lines![:D]
https://forums.GunBroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7065870 -
That is sweet! I really like the patchbox. 0 -
While I think it is way over the top and way over priced for a muzzleloader, different strokes for different folks. It is certainly not all that different from the old Austin and Halleck in-lines and others.
I had a TC Black Diamond that could use 150 grains equivalent of BP or pellets and was considered magnum. With 90 to 100 grains accuracy was good at 150gr accuracy sucked and it recoiled like a centerfire.
There have also been muzzleloaders that used smokeless powders. IMS Remington offered one for a while, but I believe it sold poorly.0 -
That Bad Bull thing does nothing at all for me.
In fact, I think it undoes what the whole idea of Muzzle Loader/Black Powder is all about. Yuck......Not for me!
I shot loads of deer with a Browning Mountain Rifle in 45 Cal. Finally stepped up to the 50 cal in line with scope etc, and have been frustrated ever since! Time to go back, "Old School"[;)]
Brookwood, your work is exceptional! Beautiful!
Thanks for sharing![;)][:D][:p]0 -
Tall Money. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by GreatGuns
I've hunted the river bottom areas for whitetail here in Western Montana for the past ten years with a Thompson Center .50 cal Hawken I built from a kit. Very enjoyable method of hunting, back to the roots with iron sights and getting in as close as possible for that one shot. [^]
We don't have a "muzzleloader" season, but as long as it's not an inline model (like the one offered on GB), it qualifies in the bow and handgun areas. [;)]
There are some monsters in the bottoms. I lived near Glasgow and the Milk river bottoms had some nice Whitetails. At the time the locals considered them varmints. I shot Bucks that would have been state records east of the Mississippi.0 -
http://badbullmuzzleloaders.com/
Power
A Bad Bull Muzzleloader will shoot a 275 gr. Jacketed Bullet at a muzzle velocity of 3100 FPS. The 275 gr. Bullet fired at 3100 FPS has over 6000 ft/lbs. of energy at the muzzle. This power is attained through the use of Smokeless Powder and our patented Mag-Prime Ignition System.
What load is used in the Bad Bull?
The Bad Bull Muzzleloader uses IMR 4350 smokeless powder. The minimum load is 130gr. DO NOT drop below 130gr, or DO NOT exceed 140gr of IMR 4350. We recommend a 45 Wonder Wad on top of the powder charge with our 275gr bullet seated on the wad. A Large Rifle Magnum primer is used to ignite the charge. We use a Federal 215M Primer. This is the only Primer that performs properly in the Bad Bull Muzzleloader.
DO NOT LOAD LESS THAN 130gr IMR 4350.0 -
I suppose there is a difference between 'primitive weapons' season & 'muzzleloader' season. The definition of a muzzleloader is pretty simple - loads from the muzzle, right? Does it matter what powder you're pouring in? Also, if you're not using black powder, your using something classified as smokeless powder. For most of the BP substitutes, stuff is added to make them smoke!
I got into muzzleloaders simply because I wanted 3 more days that I could hunt deer with a gun! That is it - not because if any love of old guns. So when my state came out and said smokeless powder was legal for muzzleloaders, I bought a Savage and have never looked back. I have never missed having to clean the gun every time I shot it.
I love guns, but also have no problems with modern, efficient and easy to live with. Of course that doesn't mean I'm looking to replace the Savage any time soon (or ever).0 -
The definition of manslaughter is a firearm that has to be loaded From the muzzle, and cannot use a cartridge for ammo...
There are liberals that want to redefine what is classified as what in firearms. That includes people that want to redefine the definition of a muzzleloader... If you are one that wants to redefine the classification of a firearm including a muzzleloader, understand you're just a liberal[V][V]
That being said, do I think the newfangled muzzleloader gives an unfair advantage over somebody that uses an old style muzzleloader? The answer would be yes. But everybody chooses their own firearm to use, and if you don't like people using the newfangled muzzleloaders because you think it's giving them an unfair advantage, that's on you. If you're in favor of changing the law making certain muzzleloaders illegal to use, that would be just like what the Liberals are trying to do with a second amendment saying we can only own muzzleloaders.
So are you a liberal, or not?0 -
Yes it has to use smokeless to get that kind of power. I never heard of the Bad Bull before.
I was an avid deer hunter back in Georgia thirty years ago and I was slaying 'em with my 30-06 Mauser, built as a sporter at the Mauserwerks at Oberndorf in 1955. Killed a lot of hogs with that rifle also.
But I wanted to see what life was like for Davy Crockett. I build log cabin that look like 1840, I wanted to see what deer hunting was like in 1840. I bought a TC Hawken, and loaded 80 grains of black powder and a .490 patched round ball.
Back then there was no special season for muzzleloading in Georgia.
Well I soon found that Davy Crockett wasn't so dumb because that .50 round ball was a real deer killer. Never had one go over 50 yards on a lung shot, whereas, they would usually go 110 yard when hit with the Mauser. And in central Georgia, the average shot was about 50 yards. I loved hunting deer with the T/C Hawken.
Then, I built a Tennessee Mountain Rifle from a Dixie kit and hunted with it also. Killed hogs and deer with it. Also killed some game with my .58 Zouave C*vil War replica, also bought that one from Dixie. That .58 Minie ball is no slouch on a deer, I imagine it would have worked pretty well on a Yankee. Only 60 grains powder with that rifle.
I loved to hunt with my muzzleloaders.
Then, I got to be 55 years old, started having vision problems, and could not see well enough with iron sights to hunt in an ethical fashion. So I got a Savage muzzleloader.
Well this is the opposite end of the spectrum to put it mildly. Plastic stock. Scope. I was shooting a sabot load with a 250 grain hollow point at more foot pounds than a 30 06. You want more foot pounds, you put in more powder.
That damn Savage was accurate too. I killed 3 deer with that rifle.
I do think that these scoped smokeless guns go against the purpose of a "primitive weapons hunt." You only got one shot. Hell, if you need more than one shot with that badass rifle you should retire.
I thought it was against the purpose, but I didn't make the rules.
I will say, that at 3,100 foot pounds about 5 shots at the range will do it for you for the day.0 -
quote:Originally posted by remingtonoaks
The definition of manslaughter is a firearm that has to be loaded From the muzzle, and cannot use a cartridge for ammo...
There are liberals that want to redefine what is classified as what in firearms. That includes people that want to redefine the definition of a muzzleloader... If you are one that wants to redefine the classification of a firearm including a muzzleloader, understand you're just a liberal[V][V]
That being said, do I think the newfangled muzzleloader gives an unfair advantage over somebody that uses an old style muzzleloader? The answer would be yes. But everybody chooses their own firearm to use, and if you don't like people using the newfangled muzzleloaders because you think it's giving them an unfair advantage, that's on you. If you're in favor of changing the law making certain muzzleloaders illegal to use, that would be just like what the Liberals are trying to do with a second amendment saying we can only own muzzleloaders.
So are you a liberal, or not?
I live in a weapon restricted area, the previous owner of this place had that rule put in place. The reason is the garage and shop has been shot before and neighbors having to hide thier kids. There is a section of state land between the development and the highway, this is a very popular area because the antelope and elk walk right through there, I?ve posted pics of the massive elk herd from my kitchen window.
So people drive up, park down there and open fire on the antelope and elk without any regard for the houses that are in the line of fire and when the elk herd crosses in hunting season it gets very dangerous here.
Weapon restricted, handgun with straight wall cases, no 30-06 Encore handguns! Shotgun or muzzleloader NO Sabots! I just learned this and had to stop using that fancy ammo, slugs only. Then of course there is archery equipment.
The reason for shotgun and muzzleloader with no sabots is to reduce range, basicaly get shots down to 100 yards or less. When most states and hunting areas go to primitive weapons it is to reduce range for the safety of those who may live in the line of fire. When you have companies designing weapons to circumvent these restrictions and basicaly making muzzleloaders and shotguns perform like some rifles then there is a failure in the restriction itself.
You would be suprised at how many people ignore these signs and still come up here with rifles, just two years ago some dork from Washington shot a bull with a .338, that bull was between my kitchen window and the dork meaning my kitchen window was in the line of fire.
I moved out here to escape the idiots back east who treat hunting season as a free for all war. Sadly, there are idiots out here who are blinded by bloodlust when they see those elk.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Big Sky Redneck
quote:Originally posted by remingtonoaks
The definition of manslaughter is a firearm that has to be loaded From the muzzle, and cannot use a cartridge for ammo...
There are liberals that want to redefine what is classified as what in firearms. That includes people that want to redefine the definition of a muzzleloader... If you are one that wants to redefine the classification of a firearm including a muzzleloader, understand you're just a liberal[V][V]
That being said, do I think the newfangled muzzleloader gives an unfair advantage over somebody that uses an old style muzzleloader? The answer would be yes. But everybody chooses their own firearm to use, and if you don't like people using the newfangled muzzleloaders because you think it's giving them an unfair advantage, that's on you. If you're in favor of changing the law making certain muzzleloaders illegal to use, that would be just like what the Liberals are trying to do with a second amendment saying we can only own muzzleloaders.
So are you a liberal, or not?
I live in a weapon restricted area, the previous owner of this place had that rule put in place. The reason is the garage and shop has been shot before and neighbors having to hide thier kids. There is a section of state land between the development and the highway, this is a very popular area because the antelope and elk walk right through there, I?ve posted pics of the massive elk herd from my kitchen window.
So people drive up, park down there and open fire on the antelope and elk without any regard for the houses that are in the line of fire and when the elk herd crosses in hunting season it gets very dangerous here.
Weapon restricted, handgun with straight wall cases, no 30-06 Encore handguns! Shotgun or muzzleloader NO Sabots! I just learned this and had to stop using that fancy ammo, slugs only. Then of course there is archery equipment.
The reason for shotgun and muzzleloader with no sabots is to reduce range, basicaly get shots down to 100 yards or less. When most states and hunting areas go to primitive weapons it is to reduce range for the safety of those who may live in the line of fire. When you have companies designing weapons to circumvent these restrictions and basicaly making muzzleloaders and shotguns perform like some rifles then there is a failure in the restriction itself.
You would be suprised at how many people ignore these signs and still come up here with rifles, just two years ago some dork from Washington shot a bull with a .338, that bull was between my kitchen window and the dork meaning my kitchen window was in the line of fire.
I moved out here to escape the idiots back east who treat hunting season as a free for all war. Sadly, there are idiots out here who are blinded by bloodlust when they see those elk.
What you're talking about it's a completely different than what I am... What you're talking about car restrictions for safety reasons0 -
quote:Originally posted by remingtonoaks
The definition of manslaughter is a firearm that has to be loaded From the muzzle, and cannot use a cartridge for ammo...
There are liberals that want to redefine what is classified as what in firearms. That includes people that want to redefine the definition of a muzzleloader... If you are one that wants to redefine the classification of a firearm including a muzzleloader, understand you're just a liberal[V][V]
That being said, do I think the newfangled muzzleloader gives an unfair advantage over somebody that uses an old style muzzleloader? The answer would be yes. But everybody chooses their own firearm to use, and if you don't like people using the newfangled muzzleloaders because you think it's giving them an unfair advantage, that's on you. If you're in favor of changing the law making certain muzzleloaders illegal to use, that would be just like what the Liberals are trying to do with a second amendment saying we can only own muzzleloaders.
So are you a liberal, or not?
No I am a raycist.
BTW This is how my state defines a "Blackpowder" Firearm:
During the blackpowder deer season, the only lawful firearms are
blackpowder shotguns, rifles and handguns. The Commission
defines a blackpowder firearm as any firearm that cannot use
fixed ammunition.
So that would make this thing a legal firearm in NC to use during the so called "Blackpowder" season.[V]
That goes to show the ignorance of the DNR or whomever wrote it.
In NC you can hunt with a crossbow now, even if you are not crippled. It used to be only crippled people could hunt with a crossbow.
I don't hunt really anymore so I could care less but In my raycist/liberal or what ever label you want to pin on me because we all know you have to have a frickin label supplied by some know it all, opinion these are not in the sprit of the hunt.
You can agree or disagree and I really could care less.
Maybe in the interest of conservatism we could have a ray gun season or maybe a diversity season where you can use anything you want like a spear gun or maybe a rape whistle.............0 -
quote:Originally posted by KX500
I suppose there is a difference between 'primitive weapons' season & 'muzzleloader' season. The definition of a muzzleloader is pretty simple - loads from the muzzle, right? Does it matter what powder you're pouring in? Also, if you're not using black powder, your using something classified as smokeless powder. For most of the BP substitutes, stuff is added to make them smoke!
I got into muzzleloaders simply because I wanted 3 more days that I could hunt deer with a gun! That is it - not because if any love of old guns. So when my state came out and said smokeless powder was legal for muzzleloaders, I bought a Savage and have never looked back. I have never missed having to clean the gun every time I shot it.
I love guns, but also have no problems with modern, efficient and easy to live with. Of course that doesn't mean I'm looking to replace the Savage any time soon (or ever).
agree
I never got a Savage ML but shoot a Remington ML with black powder substitute
to each his own
live and let live0 -
quote:Originally posted by Sam06
quote:Originally posted by remingtonoaks
The definition of manslaughter is a firearm that has to be loaded From the muzzle, and cannot use a cartridge for ammo...
There are liberals that want to redefine what is classified as what in firearms. That includes people that want to redefine the definition of a muzzleloader... If you are one that wants to redefine the classification of a firearm including a muzzleloader, understand you're just a liberal[V][V]
That being said, do I think the newfangled muzzleloader gives an unfair advantage over somebody that uses an old style muzzleloader? The answer would be yes. But everybody chooses their own firearm to use, and if you don't like people using the newfangled muzzleloaders because you think it's giving them an unfair advantage, that's on you. If you're in favor of changing the law making certain muzzleloaders illegal to use, that would be just like what the Liberals are trying to do with a second amendment saying we can only own muzzleloaders.
So are you a liberal, or not?
No I am a raycist.
BTW This is how my state defines a "Blackpowder" Firearm:
During the blackpowder deer season, the only lawful firearms are
blackpowder shotguns, rifles and handguns. The Commission
defines a blackpowder firearm as any firearm that cannot use
fixed ammunition.
So that would make this thing a legal firearm in NC to use during the so called "Blackpowder" season.[V]
That goes to show the ignorance of the DNR or whomever wrote it.
In NC you can hunt with a crossbow now, even if you are not crippled. It used to be only crippled people could hunt with a crossbow.
I don't hunt really anymore so I could care less but In my raycist/liberal or what ever label you want to pin on me because we all know you have to have a frickin label supplied by some know it all, opinion these are not in the sprit of the hunt.
You can agree or disagree and I really could care less.
Maybe in the interest of conservatism we could have a ray gun season or maybe a diversity season where you can use anything you want like a spear gun or maybe a rape whistle.............
Boy did I hit a nerve. Sorry my opinion is different than yours...
But then I don't think your opinion has to be like mine. I'm not liberal...0 -
I must say, one thing I love about the Savage is you don't have to clean it after even a single shot. In fact I only cleaned mine about once every 3 years.
Damn I got tired of cleaning those old black powder guns.0 -
quote:Power
A Bad Bull Muzzleloader will shoot a 275 gr. Jacketed Bullet at a muzzle velocity of 3100 FPS. The 275 gr. Bullet fired at 3100 FPS has over 6000 ft/lbs. of energy at the muzzle. This power is attained through the use of Smokeless Powder and our patented Mag-Prime Ignition System.
Accuracy
The X, FB, and G Series Bad Bull Muzzleloaders will shoot MOA accuracy. We use select Shilen Stainless Steel Barrels, our one step Pillar Bedding Process and the latest accuracy techniques to produce the most accurate muzzleloader ever built. To make the Bad Bull easier on the shoulder, they are equipped with recoil reducing muzzle brakes and recoil pads.
Safety
Bad Bull Muzzleloaders are designed to be the safest muzzleloaders available to shooters. Our Mag-Prime Ignition System uses a large rifle primer that is press fit into the breech plug. This is accomplished with our patented primer installing system. With a double lug bolt assembly locked up behind a press fit primer, no back blast is possible. This muzzleloader is designed for the high pressures of modern smokeless powder.
Checked their web site.0 -
They are pretty proud of those muzzleloaders. You can build your own smokeless muzzleloader for 1/4 of the price. 0 -
My hunting ML was a TC Renegade in .54 bore. I also hunted sometimes with a .45 long rifle. Both percussion ignition guns, but if I had it to do over I would do flintlock long rifle.
The gun in the link coupled with muzzle loader makes me nauseous. Particularly when I think of the quality of a real muzzle loader that could be purchased for that amount.
PS: I forgot about my bear hunt with a .58 cal Zuave.0 -
quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
I must say, one thing I love about the Savage is you don't have to clean it after even a single shot. In fact I only cleaned mine about once every 3 years.
Damn I got tired of cleaning those old black powder guns.
Same reason I bought a smokeless. Hunt all season then clean.0
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