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  • allen griggs
    That's right, FCD.   You have to add fuel oil to ammonium nitrate to make it explode.
    I think we are not being told the whole story on this explosion.     I think we are being lied to.
    0
  • Don McManus
    @...: 31542971617435/comments/
    I thought ammonium nitrate needed to be mixed with fuel oil to be explosive.  If it's that explosive on its own, why do people add fuel oil to it?

    It is an strong oxidizer and needs a fuel source. An explosion that large pretty much requires the fuel to be fairly well mixed, I would think.


    With the grain silos near by, one could consider 6 years of grain dust. If one is looking for an accidental explanation, that is.

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  • BobJudy
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    It is an strong oxidizer and needs a fuel source. An explosion that large pretty much requires the fuel to be fairly well mixed, I would think.


    With the grain silos near by, one could consider 6 years of grain dust. If one is looking for an accidental explanation, that is.

    Not sure that it needs to be thoroughly mixed. The two big explosions in 1947 and 2013 here in the U.S. were caused by nearby fires heating the ammonium nitrate over 170 degrees causing it to break down and self oxidize. At that point it accelerates combustion so any fuel nearby becomes explosive, probably including the grain dust. 

    One thing mentioned in the reports is that Hezbollah controls the port. If that is the case, who knows what other explosive material was stored there. Somehow I doubt it was fireworks. Bob
    0
  • Rocky Raab
    No, It can go high order on its own.
    It has to be stored in bulk -- check.
    It has to be heated, as in a fire -- check (Lebanon in August certainly helped.)
    It has to have a small initiator explosion -- check, as per the video.
    In order, there were three events: a fire (grey smoke); a small explosion (rapid tower of orange smoke); and an almost immediate very large blast. Orange smoke is almost a fingerprint for an AN explosion, btw.
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  • Wild Turkey
    I thought ammonium nitrate needed to be mixed with fuel oil to be explosive.  If it's that explosive on its own, why do people add fuel oil to it?

    Texas City 1949 -- ship loaded with ammonium nitrate explodes.  Article has some good info on explosion conditions and there are lots of videos on YouTube of fire and aftermath
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_City_disaster
    0
  • jimdeere
    Pfft...probably just some peaceful protesters.
    0
  • select-fire
    Hey Boss, we have anything else like that around here?
    0
  • TRAP55
    This is the one that started Haz-Mat standards for the trucking industry.

    0
  • chme
    Rocky is correct- the "orange smoke/ red smoke" is nitrogen dioxide gas.  When shooting rock, it is a sign of a less-than-optimum shot.  AN IS a strong oxidizer- get it hot enough, it is liberating O2, which will change a fire into an explosion.  Normally AN is mixed with a fuel- can be diesel, nitromethane, and even coal dust has been used.  But hot AN on its own can find a fuel to react with.  The Henderson NV fire at Pacific Engineering involved ammonium perchlorate- similar chemical- and THAT fire started with welding.  The rapid compression of air creates a visible shock wave from the density of air increasing to that of steel- then air pressure drops, moisture in the air forms instant cloud.  How this mess came to be- no idea- but Lebanon is truly screwed- that one port handled about 90%  of their economy- and it just went away.  As far as comparison to Hiroshima- not even close.  AN, even with an optimum fuel mix, is only about 70% of TNT equivalent.  About 1.9 KT if all the AN reacted.  Hiroshima was about 13 KT.  This is the PEPCON explosion in Henderson- note red smoke, sequential explosions.
    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=pepcon+blast+henderson+nevada&&view=detail&mid=A606055FAFAA25C8EAAAA606055FAFAA25C8EAAA&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dpepcon%2Bblast%2Bhenderson%2Bnevada%26FORM%3DHDRSC3
     
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  • pulsarnc

    During haz mat training , we are taught the dangers of large amounts of fertilizer . Best thing to do if it is on fire is RUN

    3
  • bpost
    In summation referring to the conflagration and ensuing detonation of said chemicals and quoting Forest Gump.... "It happens."
    Whoops!
    0
  • Rocky Raab
    I was wrong about the Henderson blast. Thanks chme. It was indeed ammonium perchlorate there - and also what the Space Shuttle rockets used as an oxidizer. Not ammonium nitrate. The other things I mentioned about AN, however, were correct AFAIK.
    (AP is even nastier than AN as far as going kaboom is concerned.)
    0
  • Grunt2
    Not sure if the reports of aluminum and ammonium based explosives were not co-involved or not...but...
    Ammonium nitrate functions as an oxidizer and the aluminum as the fuel...The use of the cheap ammonium nitrate makes it a replacement for TNT and the less stable nitroglycerin explosives...(kind of what everybody shoots at the range these days...Tannerite!)
    Ammonium nitrate and aluminum are relatively sensitive...But what I recall...it is susceptible to degradation over time...??? 
    Just my 2c...

    0
  • chme
    Pulsar- when dealing with explosives on fire, was taught to use the rule of thumb.  Close one eye,  Extend arm, raise thumb.  If you cannot totally block sight of entire fire scene with your thumb, you are too damn close!  HAZMAT troopers used to say their two most useful bits of equipment were a good pair of running shoes, and good binoculars.  
    0
  • kannoneer
    We are no strangers to large blasts. Google the Lake Denmark/ Picatinny Arsenal explosion in 1926.
    Gen. Hatcher mentions it in Hatcher's Notebook.
    3
  • kannoneer
    The Halifax, Nova Scotia blast of 1917 was another eardrum-buster. Rated at 2.9 kilotons, the largest man-made explosion in history up to that point.
    0
  • pulsarnc

    Chme , we would use the rookies sometimes . Send them in to check things out . If they survived it was safe to try to go in and do something

    A buddy of mine was EOD in the army . He always said if you see me running feel free to join me cause stuff is about to happen

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  • notnow
    This reminds me of an event way, way back maybe 1300's the Dutch were fighting a war and had their powder (black powder) stored in the town nearby. Right in the town amongst  the houses. Two guys went in to get some powder . They were carrying candles so they could see. Yep the powder went off and blew most of the town away. One of the Dutch Masters, (the painters not the cigar) painted a picture depicting The damage from a distance. I happened to see it on the cover of JAMA when was working.
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  • Butchdog2
    Does not need to be mixed with liquid fuel to be an explosive. Pretty sure the heat caused the stuff to give of a flammable gas. Similar to the Brownsville blast as it was confined in a cargo hold if I remember correctly.Open heat source, spark, welder, etc started the fire. May be a slow burn to start but once the gas from the burning AN gets to the right concentration it becomes almost like a BLEVIE. You have the initial fire below, flammable gas by product above and away she goes. Big explosion follows when all the tons of AN become air bore from first explosion.
    And yes we were taught the rule of thumb was the only recourse for some hazardous situations.
    Man you would have had to had a big thumb and long arm to be far enough away from that  beast.





























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  • notnow
    Well, most of what I posted was wrong. It was 1654 in Delft and 80,000-90,000 lbs of powder went off. And there was more than one painting. It was a birthday candle compared to what happened in Beirut yesterday.
    3
  • Butchdog2
    Best one could tell the grain?, silos are still standing. The engineer and builder should be proud. I would wager the silos saved many lives.
    Picture on Fox news show the shore line at the dock is gone.
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  • Cling2myguns
    2750 tons of Tannerite :wink: Wonder if anyone said "Hey y'all, watch this" just before the blast.
    0
  • Toolman286
    Kannoneer, Not to mention the 9/12/40 blast at the Hercules powder plant in Kenvil, NJ (not far from Picatinny.)   297,000 pounds of smokeless powder went up.   http://www.roxburynewjersey.com/hercules.htm
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  • select-fire
    Nations will figure it out... Israel is offering assistance.
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