Military Question.
What is your opinion. On this date, in 1977, Jimmy Carter, Pardoned all the draft dodgers from the Vietnam war. Some men were scared and some didn't feel right about the war. I myself, never served in the military. I went from HS, to being married in two weeks, and then on to college.
If I was drafted, I know I would have went and enlisted in the Marine Corp, or Navy right away. I think the draft ended the year I graduated HS, 1981. Not sure.
Having said this, I'm not sure how I personally feel about the draft dodgers. I don't consider them cowards, Just men with a fear of dying for something they didn't believe in, or strong religious beliefs. Some of you were drafted or enlisted, and served our country proudly. Would you stand up for your friend, neighbor, or family member, that refused to serve on these basis???? Do you feel that you served, to protect their rights as Americans????
God bless you all and please don't let this become an argument. Thank you all for your HONEST answer. Oakie
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If those who have served since the Declaration Of Independence was declared had cut and ran, We would all be speaking German, Japanese, Russian. That is, if we were allowed to live under their tyranny. Pastor Martin Neimoller said it best, look him up. The Sissies made their choice and I made mine. They have to live with theirs, they know what they did. No, I do not forgive them and neither do my brothers who didn't come home.
BTW, I DO BELIEVE ON MY MOTHERS GRAVE MANY P.O.W.'S WERE/ARE BEING HELD IN CAPTIVITY. JUST LIKE THE CHINESE DID AFTER THE KOREAN CONFLICT.
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With all due respect, elubsme, the last war we fought where there was a real threat of invasion of the Continental US and the overthrow of our government was the war of 1812.
The remaining wars of the 19th century and all wars of the 20th and 21st century were engaged for political or economic reasons.
Neither Germany, Japan, nor the Soviet Union ever had the capability of taking over the US. Yes, the Soviets could have destroyed much of the US, but once the destruction occurred, we still would never have been occupied.
Do not get me wrong. I have nothing but respect for those who sacrificed life and limb in our armed forces in wars to protect the political and/or economic interests of the United States. I also recognize that many or most of these wars, while they protected our way of life, did not have much to do with protecting our freedom.
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The Army of Northern Agression invaded Virginia in 1861. They had to draft immigrants to man their army.
I suppose we'd have to draft immigrants to man our army, today.
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Not Continental USA but believe Alaska Highway was joint venture with Canadians because real fear the Japs would invade USA. They did knock on the door in Aleutians.----------------Ray
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Don McManus: 30378796748443/comments/
With all due respect, elubsme, the last war we fought where there was a real threat of invasion of the Continental US and the overthrow of our government was the war of 1812.
The remaining wars of the 19th century and all wars of the 20th and 21st century were engaged for political or economic reasons.
Neither Germany, Japan, nor the Soviet Union ever had the capability of taking over the US. Yes, the Soviets could have destroyed much of the US, but once the destruction occurred, we still would never have been occupied.
Do not get me wrong. I have nothing but respect for those who sacrificed life and limb in our armed forces in wars to protect the political and/or economic interests of the United States. I also recognize that many or most of these wars, while they protected our way of life, did not have much to do with protecting our freedom.
There were many possibilities in the first World War and WW-II. Without our help and support Germany would have conquered Europe and eventually became strong enough to attack and take over the U.S. If not, Hitler and the Japanese Empire surely would have done so in the second world war after they had the rest of the world under their control. I do agree with you that political and economical gain had a lot to do with it. Even more so today. I fear for our country's future more than ever today. Ed
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elubsme: 30378796748443/comments/
https://forums.gunbroker.com/discussion/comment/11375823#Comment_11375823
There were many possibilities in the first World War and WW-II. Without our help and support Germany would have conquered Europe and eventually became strong enough to attack and take over the U.S. If not, Hitler and the Japanese Empire surely would have done so in the second world war after they had the rest of the world under their control. I do agree with you that political and economical gain had a lot to do with it. Even more so today. I fear for our country's future more than ever today. Ed
Even if Germany had been successful in their European campaign, occupation of the US was not only not on their agenda, it was not in the realm of possibility.
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Was not Germany very close to developing the Atomic bomb( Heavy water) and a jet bomber to deliver it? At the Point, Westy loaned me to Werner Von Braun (Redstone Arsenal) for a day. Took him to the Ordinance Lab to lecture cadets. We grabbed a lot of those brilliant minds after the war. Given a little more time, who knows what might have happened.--------------------------Ray
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4205raymond: 30378796748443/comments/
Was not Germany very close to developing the Atomic bomb( Heavy water) and a jet bomber to deliver it? At the Point, Westy loaned me to Werner Von Braun (Redstone Arsenal) for a day. Took him to the Ordinance Lab to lecture cadets. We grabbed a lot of those brilliant minds after the war. Given a little more time, who knows what might have happened.--------------------------Ray
That's exactly why we should never fight to a stalemate, if we're going to fight then lets kick a$$. In a stalemate the weaker actually is the winner.
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There was a TV show in 1975 about a hippie/musician, his step-daughter, his girlfriend and his hippie friends, all of whom were living in Canada. I don't recall anyone in the show saying so specifically, but I had the impression that these characters were in Canada to avoid the draft.
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The "brains" behind the Iraq War, Dick Cheney, could have gone to 'Nam. He got five deferments. Cheney never served in the military.
And the man he talked in to starting up the illegal Iraq War, George Bush, flew fighter jets during the Vietnam War. George flew over Mobile Alabama, he was in the Air Force Reserve. George never crossed the Pacific during the war, but he looked good in the uniform. Rich kids got in to the Army Reserve, or Air Force Reserve, knowing they would not be sent to the war.
George Bush the First's VP Dan Quayle was in the Army Reserve in Indiana during the Vietnam War.
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@allen griggs, there is also a lot of talk that George Bush (Jr.) Did not show up for a majority of his "Reserve," duty. Special treatment, don't cha know. (?)
(His Dad, actually fought in a War and was shot down.)
Trump, also received 5 Draft deferments. (Like Cheney.) Funny how Cowards, become Hawks once in charge and their Butt's are not on the line. (Funny, NOT.)
Kudo's to all that Served. 👍
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lf Jimmy Cracker can pardon draft dodgers, Joe Biden can pardon Todd & Julie Chrisley😜
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Allen, Reserves DID go to Vietnam to fight. So did the Coast Guard, which a lot of people don't know. At least Bush and Quayle raised their hands and took the oath to serve.
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@...: 30378796748443/comments/
@allen griggs, there is also a lot of talk that George Bush (Jr.) Did not show up for a majority of his "Reserve," duty. Special treatment, don't cha know. (?)
(His Dad, actually fought in a War and was shot down.)
Trump, also received 5 Draft deferments. (Like Cheney.) Funny how Cowards, become Hawks once in charge and their Butt's are not on the line. (Funny, NOT.)
Kudo's to all that Served. 👍
IIRC, Ken, this ‘story’ was a big part of the reason Dan Rather was let go.
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@Don McManus, not sure if you are saying I am wrong, Sir. If so, that may very well be the case. I remember reading a fair amount about it back in the day. (Not from Dan Rather.)
Who knows, the way things are spun?
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Reserves went to 'Nam. But compared to draftees, the percent of Reserves who went to the war was very low.
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Those that had educational deferments never bothered me with their choice, they followed the rules/laws, those that skipped the country is a completely different matter in my opinion, kinda like giving the U.S.A the middle finger and then returning to reap our freedom without being penalized. That don't set to well with me, the same as Jane Fonda, they never will.
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I also have much disrespect for CANADA for taking in those draft dodgers with open arms!
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allen griggs: 30378796748443/comments/30378845803931
Reserves went to 'Nam. But compared to draftees, the percent of Reserves who went to the war was very low.
Maybe, but I saw reservists come and go, then more came and went. Some came with rank made as a reservist. We had quite a few get out early because they didn't have enough time remaining to do another deployment which lasted for 9 months. I did two full terms, Chu Lai and DaNang - M.C.B. 10 Seabees. And then an additional year as a Permanent Shore Patrolman at Port Hueneme, Ca. to complete my four year active voluntary enlistment followed by two years inactive reserve. No regrets.
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All though I have never served. My dear old Dad did. Once I was speaking on behalf of the VFW and the Native Sons member spoke on being a conscientious objector, I remember saying to myself liar. Growing up I knew all about the draft. I see the head stones. In fact one of the most beautiful views in Ferndale is at the top of the Ferndale Cemetery where Lyle Morris is buried. Or there's down by the gate where there's the empty grave of Tim Jocobsen MIA..... As far as I'm concerned you better have a good reason not to answer her call.
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Allen, i think you have things confused. George the Elder Bush was a navy TBM Avenger pilot in WW2 off carriers. shot down on a mission bombing[2 crewmen lost] a radar station on Chi Chi Jima island. rescued by sub. his flying days ended after that.
George the 2nd was a fighter pilot [some say part time] with the Texas Air National Guard, never spent a day overseas or in combat anywhere.
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discusdad, that is what I said, except, I did not mention the combat career of the elder George Bush:
"And the man he talked in to starting up the illegal Iraq War, George Bush, flew fighter jets during the Vietnam War. George flew over Mobile Alabama, he was in the Air Force Reserve. George never crossed the Pacific during the war, but he looked good in the uniform. Rich kids got in to the Army Reserve, or Air Force Reserve, knowing they would not be sent to the war.
George Bush the First's VP Dan Quayle was in the Army Reserve in Indiana during the Vietnam War."
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If I remember correctly,when there was rumors of the first Gulf war,Dick Cheney,George W. Bush,Rush Limbaugh,and several others were hawks all for a war.Colin Powell was against going to war.Of all those people,General Powell was the only one that had ever been to war and shot at by the enemy.It usually changes ones outlook on war once you have been in a serious fire fight. I know that times will come when combat troops must be deployed and lets hope that the powers that be have plans to win and bring as many troops home as we sent.
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